bombs for security

[susan gilbert]

From: "telebob x" <telebob98@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 01:20:45 +0000
To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
Subject: Re: bombs for security


Well Roger....we were not able to 'bomb our way into security' during
VietNam....it is true...but this is not VietNam.  And the big mistake we
made during the Gulf War was in not pursuing our advantage and ridding Iraq
of Saddam.  Yes...it would have been a huge headache, and it would have
offended some of our allies, but it is what should have been done...we can
see that with 20/20 hindsight.
bob, whats your situation, i gather that you live in costa rica, for how
long, how many kids, whats your life like  etc., etc., i last recall seeing
you at johnnys in austin in 85? for a minute, any way my question to you is
do you have a male child eligible for a draft?

I agree with some of the Richard Holbrooke types who say that what is neede=
d
now, and quickly, is a UN peacekeeping team to come in and impose order and
try to get a functioning government going in Afg.  Headed up by Turks and
other troops from Muslim countries.

As for bombing our way into secure worlds....well like it or not, bombs won
us peace in WWII.  Bombs are only part of the formula as you well know and
glibly avoid. The Irish Times Vincent Browne piece is utter
hogwash....everything in it is 'might','may' and 'could'....all total
speculation.  Sure, it is a dangerous world. It always has been.  Finally
the USA is (re) awakening to that fact....that someone might want to blow u=
p
the salad bar at the Golden Corral is a fact that Americans will have to
face...and their "God Bless America" signs will not change that.  Welcome t=
o
the crowded mess of today.

this past summer my son was wandering down an alley in eugene drunkenly
stopping to piss as his younger brother kept going on, apparently his act s=
o
insulted some drunk, on a backporch of a "college area" alley house, that h=
e
ralleyed his other five buddies to come and attack this hapless drunk ,
thank god the younger brother heard the fracus and came back and interrupte=
d
the kicking by these six "boys" of my boy, he broke the rhythm of the
beating even though he got thumped pretty good too, you know i wanted to go
bomb that house, for various reasons i did not.

The self censorship you mention regarding the Ft Walton Beach paper
censoring the civilian casualties is perfectly normal.  When the feeling in
the USA is running 90% for the war...an editor would have to be a fool to
antagonize his readership by appearing to be too sensitive to collateral
damage.

I have been watching a lot of international TV here in CR  (Italian Chinese
and Chilean TV are on cable here and they show the same footage as CNN of
the Kabul population being vastly relieved at the fall of the Taliban) It i=
s
sad to see any noncombatant die....but like you said, breaking eggs to get
omlettes....though I prefer the analogy of the pain a person goes through i=
n
surgery.  There is pain and suffering, but the malignancy must be removed.

say bob,
could you recommend a way for me to remove this pain and malignacy that
remains in my heart toward those guys?

And I know you will say the Taliban and AmeriKa haters are still out
there...sure, and there are some Tim McVeighs and Ted Kazynskis too...still
out there.

I do not like our policy regarding the Palistinians. I do not like
supporting a corrupt regime in Saudi Arabia.  Etc...but did you know they
are now demonstrating in Iran in favor of the USA and against their own
Mullahs?  Things change all the time. We are not always the world bad guy
you portray. I see an awful lot of people want to join our little country
and 'way of life' however perverse you think it is.

I am no fan of the present amoral corporate dominance.  I think we have to
do something to harness these bastards.  I like the plans talked about by
Arianna Huffington.  I loved the Bill Moyers speech that Richard Smith sent
along yesterday. (Read it if you haven't already). But I do believe in the
ideals of the USA, if not the reality of what we are presently...and though
you do not like to admit it...so do you.


bob, this is one of the places i start to get confused, due to no adequate
understanding of just what these usa ideals are, i have often found myself
on the wrong side of "ideals"


And I don't care if we run out of oil.  We will find something else...when
it makes economic sense to do so.  Our ingenuity is really remarkable. I
personally like geothermal...since I am down here in the land of volcanoes.
Solar is nice too and so on...but why do you have to be such a constant nay
saying worry wart? If we listnened to you we would all buy bicycles and go
live in dirt yurts or something.

Boil boil toil and trouble....fire burn...etc..eye of newt (good idea)

And by the way, I do not have to hide behind Christopher Hitchens
journalistic skirts.  I can defend myself and my opinions just fine thank
you. Just because I like P.J. O'Rourke and Hitchens doesn't make me their
surrogate.

and so on,

p.s., i really like ariana huffington, she's very well spoken,

Teleobob

take care, susi (i haven't gone by  shurley for a coons age and feel like a=
n
imposter but here goes) shurley
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From: "Jon Ford" <jonmfordster@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:19:38 -0800
To: telebob98@hotmail.com, austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
Subject: Re: why sudden silence?

Well, Bob--let's just say I'm "waiting and seeing." Trying to be hopeful.
The US has a good opportunity in Afghanistan, as does the UN and the
surrounding Arab states.We could see some improved international cooperatio=
n
coming out of this.  But has Muslim fundamentalism "gone away" beause we
drove out the Taliban like an elephant stomping a flea? No. Has terrorism?
Nope. Have we dealt with the way our corporations exploit people around the
world in the name of  free trade?  Not a clue. So what have we accomplished=
?
We've given up some of our civil lierties at home-- will we get them back?
Don't count on it.Our economy is in the toilet, and we've fired up a really
big budget deficit, with no end in sight to the spending on war and
corporate bail-outs. Not altogether a great time to be an American, but we
sure showed those no good Talibaners a thingt or three, ha ha ha!

Jon

>From: "telebob x"=20
>To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
>Subject: why sudden silence?
>Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 16:14:05 +0000
>=20
>Gee, what has happened to the usual drumbeat of defeat from Roger,
>Jon, et=20
>al ? Shocking! The USA did something right again. And not for the
>wrong=20
>reasons either.=20
>=20
>tele=20
>=20
>Ha ha ha=20
>by=20
>Christopher Hitchens
>Wednesday November 14, 2001
>The Guardian=20
>=20
>There was a time in my life when I did a fair bit of
>work for the tempestuous Lucretia Stewart, then editor
>of the American Express travel magazine, Departures.
>Together, we evolved a harmless satire of the slightly
>drivelling style employed by the journalists of
>tourism. "Land of Contrasts" was our shorthand for it.
>("Jerusalem: an enthralling blend of old and new."
>"South Africa: a harmony in black and white."
>"Belfast, where ancient meets modern.") It was as you
>can see, no difficult task. I began to notice a few
>weeks ago that my enemies in the "peace" movement had
>decided to borrow from this tattered style book. The
>mantra, especially in the letters to this newspaper,
>was: "Afghanistan, where the world's richest country
>rains bombs on the world's poorest country."
>=20
>Poor fools. They should never have tried to beat me at
>this game. What about, "Afghanistan, where the world's
>most open society confronts the world's most closed
>one"? "Where American women pilots kill the men who
>enslave women." "Where the world's most indiscriminate
>bombers are bombed by the world's most accurate ones."
>"Where the largest number of poor people applaud the
>bombing of their own regime." I could go on. (I think
>number four may need a little work.) But there are
>some suggested contrasts for the "doves" to paste into
>their scrapbook. Incidentally, when they look at their
>scrapbooks they will be able to re-read themselves
>saying things like, "The bombing of Kosovo is driving
>the Serbs into the arms of Milosevic."
>=20
>If the silly policy of a Ramadan pause had been
>adopted, the citizens of Kabul would have still been
>under a regime of medieval cruelty, and their
>oppresssors would have been busily regrouping, not
>praying. Anyhow, what a damn-fool proposal to start
>with. I don't stop insulting the Christian coalition
>at Eastertime. Come Yom Kippur I tend to step up my
>scornful remarks about Zionism. Whatever happened to
>the robust secularism that used to help characterise
>the left? And why is it suddenly only the injured
>feelings of Muslims that count? A couple of years ago,
>the same people were striking pompous attitudes about
>the need to avoid offending Serbian and therefore
>Russian Orthodox sensitivities. Except that those
>sensitive people, or their leaders, were engaged in
>putting the Muslims of Europe to the sword...
>=20
>There's no pleasing some people, but as a charter
>supporter of CND I can remember a time when the peace
>movement was not an auxiliary to dictators and
>aggressors in trouble. Looking at some of the
>mind-rotting tripe that comes my way from much of
>today's left, I get the impression that they go to bed
>saying: what have I done for Saddam Hussein or good
>old Slobodan or the Taliban today?
>=20
>Well, ha ha ha, and yah, boo. It was obvious from the
>very start that the United States had no alternative
>but to do what it has done. It was also obvious that
>defeat was impossible. The Taliban will soon be
>history. Al-Qaida will take longer. There will be
>other mutants to fight. But if, as the peaceniks like
>to moan, more Bin Ladens will spring up to take his
>place, I can offer this assurance: should that be the
>case, there are many many more who will also spring up
>to kill him all over again. And there are more of us
>and we are both smarter and nicer, as well as
>surprisingly insistent that our culture demands
>respect, too.=20
>=20
>=B7 Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
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>=20
>=20



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