Cuba

Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:39:03 -0600

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Lordy I don't have time to answer Bob's piece on Cuba but I disagree =
with
much.

Prior to the revolution the underclass was larger than 50% according to
C.Wright Mills not 20%. And among other things many of the educated =
people
did not like being a pawn of a foreign power. In this case the USA.
Previously Spain. Nationalism is peculiar but strong in Cuba.

Economically Cuba is pathetic as Bob writes but he forgot Nicaragua, =
Jamaica
etc.

I still think Fidel would win a fair election. Too many of the Blacks,
mulattos and women still feel like the revolution helped them.
Real elections are held against opponents not in a vacuum. A fading =
Fidel
would beat whomever was assembled against him with a mixture of guile,
appeals to patriotism, and fear of change. Of course Bob is right in =
that we
will never know. Fidel won't have a fair election while he is alive and
vaguely coherent.

Cuba which is one of my true loves,  torments me. I know so many =
talented
people who live in suspended animation. But Fidel is a rather benign =
Patron.
There aren't firing squads and there are very few are in jail compared =
to
the USA.

The big error of ego by Fidel is not to have developed an =
European-Canadian
investor class who could keep the smarmy elements from Miami at bay when =
the
regime eventually changes. We will see the false patriots and the Dick
Cheney adventurists take hold of the Island in a bulldog grip once there =
is
an opportunity.

Cubans know this. Some young one would embrace any change. Others will
resist.

Nightbyrd

Subject: Re: Marching in Miami

> Sorry Wayne, but that is the most simplistic uninformed opinion you =
have
> ever posted on the list.
>
> First, you should understand that the Cuba that Fidel destroyed was =
the
> second most advanced Latin American country in terms of both income =
and
> health.  It was exceeded in 1959 only by Argentina. It had the lowest
child
> mortality rate of any South or Central American country, the most
telephones
> per capita, the best homes and housing, the best education, the most
> railroads, paved highways, etc.  You should remember this is Latin =
America
> we are talking about where poverty continues to be a big problem. Cuba =
was
> the best of them. If you doubt me, I can get you the UN and WHO
statistics.
> I have them.
>
> Today, though the present population is still healthy and educated, =
their
> economy and per capita income exceeds only that of Haiti.
>
> If you think 11 hotels with casinos constitutes a country "being run =
by
the
> mafia" then you are again somewhat misinformed. Yes, Batista took =
bribes
to
> allow the construction of the Mafia hotels, but it was hardly a =
country
> "controlled by the Mafia". Yes, there was a lot of poverty in the
> countryside, especially in the agriculture sector.  The owners of the
sugar
> plantations were very culpable in their exploitation of the poor =
blacks
who
> had no schools, no hospitals, and only seasonal "sugar work" during =
"la
> zafra".  It is especially in this sector of the Cuban population that
Fidel
> remains popular. But be aware it was about 20% that made up this Cuban
> underclass.  Cuba had a very large middle class.  If you doubt it, =
simply
go
> there and look at the homes where the population lived.  They were =
once an
> impressive sight. Almost every other Latin American country had much =
worse
> conditions.
>
> I am not talking about the palaces of Miramar or Siboney, I am talking
about
> the mile after mile of once middle-class homes in areas of Havana =
Province
> like- La Vibora, Boyeros, or Playa. I am talking about the cities of
> Matanzas, Santa Clara, or Pinar del Rio.  The majority of Cubans once
lived
> pretty well and had a mobile and vibrant society.
>
> Yes, there was an exploitive upper class who ran the sugar plantations =
and
> mills as a cruel fiefdom.  They deserved to be kicked out, but not the =
4
> million others who had their lives destroyed by Fidel's megalomania =
and
> crackpot ideas. The trouble is that indeed the baby got thrown out =
with
the
> bathwater. The subsequent history is a result of Fidel's being a very =
good
> chess and poker player, whatever other problems he may have.
>
> I do not blame the Cubans for hating him.  Your stereotyping of all =
the
> Miami Cubans as promoters of child prostitution and thoughtless =
uncaring
> citizens...is frankly, stupid and "cultural reductionism" at its =
worst. Do
I
> have to come up there and throw some cold water on you? Wake up and
realize
> what you just said. "Its just like those Miami Cubans to steal more =
chain
> than they can swim with." Well they already had to swim once, leaving
> everything behind. It tends to color their opinion of things.
>
> Yes, unfortunately there are a lot of demagogues who work the Miami =
Cuban
> emotions with their white hot rhetoric.  The Exiles remain an =
excitable
> bunch, and they don't always make the right choices.  But if you think =
it
> was all just bosses who came to the USA, then all I can say is, you =
are
> wrong. They were doctors, professionals, the educated, even the lower
> classes who had the means to escape.  I have been in Cuba a lot, and I =
can
> assure you, if a true unfettered election were held tomorrow, Fidel =
and
his
> Socialismo o Muerte bunch would be out on their ear.  This is without =
the
> vote of the Exiles.  The Cubans who remain  on the island chafe and =
groan
> under Fidel, but there is little they can do under "Fidel as Ulrich" =
and
his
> state mechanism of control.
>
> What the Exiles want is simply a free Cuba.  And by that I mean a Cuba
with
> some justice, some personal freedom, some clearly understood rules of
> living, democracy, and institutions that exist for the people's =
benefit,
not
> for the benefit of the Party. Free up Cuba and the Exiles will quickly
> devolve into a more diverse group with more personal pursuits.  Some =
will
> return, some will not. But with Fidel gone, they would mellow quickly.
>
> Which brings me to "WHY THE USA DOES NOT CHANGE THE POLICY TOWARD =
CUBA".
The
> answer is simple, the present power structure LIKES IT LIKE THIS. The
> "Mayberry Machiavellis" recognize that keeping the "Gusano" community
united
> (and Republican) depends on Fidel staying in place as a unifying =
symbol.
He
> is a Political Symbol used for vote control, just like "the Abortion
> Question" (Read Laswell and Turner's "Power and Society" the modern
> mathmatical Machiavellis) The Florida sugar growers do not want Cuba =
back
> competing with USA sugar. The tobacco growers of North Carolina do not
want
> to compete with Cuban tobacco either.  With these products banned from =
the
> USA, their prices remain higher. Let's see, who controls North
Carolina...oh
> a guy named Jesse Helms? I wonder why nothing ever changes? Uh, who is =
the
> ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee?  And so on.
>
> I don't like the Gusanos behavior either.  They behave very badly and =
are
> easily manipulated. But your reductionism cannot be allowed to go
> unchallenged. It is a complex issue, and there are many good people =
who
had
> their lives lives shattered.  The real enemy is the USA's Ruling Class =
who
> use the Gusanos as a handy tool. (Did you ever study the dynamics of =
the
> politics of Northern Ireland?)
>
> If you would like to discuss this off-list I would be happy to try to =
get
> you to see the real picture, but right now you seem to be accepting a
> 'headline view' of the situation, and I can assure you, that is not =
the
real
> story.
>
> tBob
>
> PS- I bet M-A  will concur, though she is not a Cuban supporter in any
way.
> The Cubans are not nuts, but take them out of context, and they sure =
seem
> that way.
> Subject: Re: Marching in Miami
>
>
> I am always very, very curious about these Cubanos who want to go back
> to...what?  A country run by the American Mafia?  Child prostitution?
> Rampant
> poverty?  No education for the poor, nor medical care?
>
> Is *this* what they want?  To return to the country where *they* are =
the
> bosses and everyone else works for peanuts in the sugar fields and =
sugar
> mills?
>
> Screw 'em, I say.
>
> wj

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<DIV>Lordy I don't=20
have time to answer Bob's piece on Cuba but I disagree=20
with much. Prior to the revolution the underclass was larger =
than 50%=20
according to C.Wright Mills not 20%. And among other things many of =
the=20
educated people did not like being a pawn of a foreign power. In this =
case=20
the USA. Previously Spain. Nationalism is peculiar but strong in=20
Cuba. Economically Cuba is pathetic as Bob writes but he forgot=20
Nicaragua, Jamaica etc. I still think Fidel would win a fair =
election.=20
Too many of the Blacks, mulattos and women still feel like the =
revolution=20
helped them. Real elections are held against opponents not in a =
vacuum. A=20
fading Fidel would beat whomever was assembled against him with a =
mixture of=20
guile, appeals to patriotism, and fear of change. Of course Bob is =
right in=20
that we will never know. Fidel won't have a fair election while he is =
alive=20
and vaguely coherent. Cuba which is one of my true =
loves,&nbsp;=20
torments me. I know so many talented people who live in suspended =
animation.=20
But Fidel is a rather benign Patron. There aren't firing squads and =
there are=20
very few are in jail compared to the USA. The big error of ego =
by=20
Fidel is not to have developed an European-Canadian investor class =
who could=20
keep the smarmy elements from Miami at bay when the regime eventually =

changes. We will see the false patriots and the Dick Cheney =
adventurists take=20
hold of the Island in a bulldog grip once there is an=20
opportunity. Cubans know this. Some young one would embrace any =
change.=20
Others will resist. Nightbyrd <FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Subject: Re: Marching in =
Miami &gt;=20
Sorry Wayne, but that is the most simplistic uninformed opinion you =
have &gt;=20
ever posted on the list. &gt; &gt; First, you should understand =
that the=20
Cuba that Fidel destroyed was the &gt; second most advanced Latin =
American=20
country in terms of both income and &gt; health.&nbsp; It was =
exceeded in=20
1959 only by Argentina. It had the lowest child &gt; mortality =
rate of any=20
South or Central American country, the most telephones &gt; per =
capita,=20
the best homes and housing, the best education, the most &gt; =
railroads,=20
paved highways, etc.&nbsp; You should remember this is Latin =
America &gt; we=20
are talking about where poverty continues to be a big problem. Cuba =
was &gt;=20
the best of them. If you doubt me, I can get you the UN and=20
WHO statistics. &gt; I have them. &gt; &gt; Today, though =
the=20
present population is still healthy and educated, their &gt; economy =
and per=20
capita income exceeds only that of Haiti. &gt; &gt; If you think =
11 hotels=20
with casinos constitutes a country "being run by the &gt; mafia" =
then you=20
are again somewhat misinformed. Yes, Batista took bribes to &gt; =
allow the=20
construction of the Mafia hotels, but it was hardly a country &gt;=20
"controlled by the Mafia". Yes, there was a lot of poverty in =
the &gt;=20
countryside, especially in the agriculture sector.&nbsp; The owners of=20
the sugar &gt; plantations were very culpable in their =
exploitation of the=20
poor blacks who &gt; had no schools, no hospitals, and only =
seasonal=20
"sugar work" during "la &gt; zafra".&nbsp; It is especially in this =
sector of=20
the Cuban population that Fidel &gt; remains popular. But be aware =
it was=20
about 20% that made up this Cuban &gt; underclass.&nbsp; Cuba had a =
very=20
large middle class.&nbsp; If you doubt it, simply go &gt; there =
and look=20
at the homes where the population lived.&nbsp; They were once an &gt; =

impressive sight. Almost every other Latin American country had much=20
worse &gt; conditions. &gt; &gt; I am not talking about the =
palaces of=20
Miramar or Siboney, I am talking about &gt; the mile after mile of =
once=20
middle-class homes in areas of Havana Province &gt; like- La Vibora, =
Boyeros,=20
or Playa. I am talking about the cities of &gt; Matanzas, Santa =
Clara, or=20
Pinar del Rio.&nbsp; The majority of Cubans once lived &gt; pretty =
well=20
and had a mobile and vibrant society. &gt; &gt; Yes, there was an=20
exploitive upper class who ran the sugar plantations and &gt; mills =
as a=20
cruel fiefdom.&nbsp; They deserved to be kicked out, but not the =
4 &gt;=20
million others who had their lives destroyed by Fidel's megalomania =
and &gt;=20
crackpot ideas. The trouble is that indeed the baby got thrown out=20
with the &gt; bathwater. The subsequent history is a result of =
Fidel's=20
being a very good &gt; chess and poker player, whatever other =
problems he may=20
have. &gt; &gt; I do not blame the Cubans for hating him.&nbsp; =
Your=20
stereotyping of all the &gt; Miami Cubans as promoters of child =
prostitution=20
and thoughtless uncaring &gt; citizens...is frankly, stupid and =
"cultural=20
reductionism" at its worst. Do I &gt; have to come up there and =
throw some=20
cold water on you? Wake up and realize &gt; what you just said. =
"Its just=20
like those Miami Cubans to steal more chain &gt; than they can swim =
with."=20
Well they already had to swim once, leaving &gt; everything behind. =
It tends=20
to color their opinion of things. &gt; &gt; Yes, unfortunately =
there are a=20
lot of demagogues who work the Miami Cuban &gt; emotions with their =
white hot=20
rhetoric.&nbsp; The Exiles remain an excitable &gt; bunch, and they =
don't=20
always make the right choices.&nbsp; But if you think it &gt; was all =
just=20
bosses who came to the USA, then all I can say is, you are &gt; =
wrong. They=20
were doctors, professionals, the educated, even the lower &gt; =
classes who=20
had the means to escape.&nbsp; I have been in Cuba a lot, and I =
can &gt;=20
assure you, if a true unfettered election were held tomorrow, Fidel=20
and his &gt; Socialismo o Muerte bunch would be out on their =
ear.&nbsp;=20
This is without the &gt; vote of the Exiles.&nbsp; The Cubans who=20
remain&nbsp; on the island chafe and groan &gt; under Fidel, but =
there is=20
little they can do under "Fidel as Ulrich" and his &gt; state =
mechanism of=20
control. &gt; &gt; What the Exiles want is simply a free =
Cuba.&nbsp; And=20
by that I mean a Cuba with &gt; some justice, some personal =
freedom, some=20
clearly understood rules of &gt; living, democracy, and institutions =
that=20
exist for the people's benefit, not &gt; for the benefit of the =
Party.=20
Free up Cuba and the Exiles will quickly &gt; devolve into a more =
diverse=20
group with more personal pursuits.&nbsp; Some will &gt; return, some =
will=20
not. But with Fidel gone, they would mellow quickly. &gt; &gt; =
Which=20
brings me to "WHY THE USA DOES NOT CHANGE THE POLICY TOWARD=20
CUBA". The &gt; answer is simple, the present power structure =
LIKES IT=20
LIKE THIS. The &gt; "Mayberry Machiavellis" recognize that keeping =
the=20
"Gusano" community united &gt; (and Republican) depends on Fidel =
staying=20
in place as a unifying symbol. He &gt; is a Political Symbol used =
for vote=20
control, just like "the Abortion &gt; Question" (Read Laswell and =
Turner's=20
"Power and Society" the modern &gt; mathmatical Machiavellis) The =
Florida=20
sugar growers do not want Cuba back &gt; competing with USA sugar. =
The=20
tobacco growers of North Carolina do not want &gt; to compete with =
Cuban=20
tobacco either.&nbsp; With these products banned from the &gt; USA, =
their=20
prices remain higher. Let's see, who controls =
North Carolina...oh &gt; a=20
guy named Jesse Helms? I wonder why nothing ever changes? Uh, who is =
the &gt;=20
ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee?&nbsp; And so=20
on. &gt; &gt; I don't like the Gusanos behavior either.&nbsp; They =
behave=20
very badly and are &gt; easily manipulated. But your reductionism =
cannot be=20
allowed to go &gt; unchallenged. It is a complex issue, and there are =
many=20
good people who had &gt; their lives lives shattered.&nbsp; The =
real enemy=20
is the USA's Ruling Class who &gt; use the Gusanos as a handy tool. =
(Did you=20
ever study the dynamics of the &gt; politics of Northern=20
Ireland?) &gt; &gt; If you would like to discuss this off-list I =
would be=20
happy to try to get &gt; you to see the real picture, but right now =
you seem=20
to be accepting a &gt; 'headline view' of the situation, and I can =
assure=20
you, that is not the real &gt; story. &gt; &gt; =
tBob &gt; &gt;=20
PS- I bet M-A&nbsp; will concur, though she is not a Cuban supporter in=20
any way. &gt; The Cubans are not nuts, but take them out of =
context, and=20
they sure seem &gt; that way. &gt; Subject: Re: Marching in Miami &gt; &gt; &gt; I =
am always=20
very, very curious about these Cubanos who want to go back &gt;=20
to...what?&nbsp; A country run by the American Mafia?&nbsp; Child=20
prostitution? &gt; Rampant &gt; poverty?&nbsp; No education for =
the poor,=20
nor medical care? &gt; &gt; Is *this* what they want?&nbsp; To =
return to=20
the country where *they* are the &gt; bosses and everyone else works =
for=20
peanuts in the sugar fields and sugar &gt; mills? &gt; &gt; =
Screw 'em,=20
I say. &gt; &gt; wj </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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