stealing away

Mon Mar 29 13:25:21 2004

Charlie,

You are so lucky to have got to explore the church options
so early.

Alas, my father was an out and out atheist member of the CPUSA,
he even was pissed when I brought home a Boy Scouts short stories
book from the library because in his opinion, the Boy Scouts was
just another tool of the capitalists.

Im not saying he was wrong.

So I had to check out the different churches on my own hook,
later on, when I was in my teens, on brief summer vacations
with my mother, when I got to check out all the white bread churches
in Woodstock, NY. I was too chicken to go into the Catholic
church (2 blocks from home) St Thomas Aquinas, and the
Methodist church literally next door was always closed except
for Sundays.

I think everyone of us has favorite religious services she has
attended, usually in a black church. When Karen and I went
to Houston to a cat show, on a Sunday walking around by
myself I fell upon a service at the old black church in the middle
of the skyscraper district.

I thought I was hearing a recording when I was just outside
the church on the deserted street but then realized it was live
singing from inside. I opened the door and huge ushers
welcomed me up the stairs to balcony seating where I stayed
for quite a while until the service became tedious and I stole away.

----- Original Message -----
From: "CHARLES LOVING" <lovingigor@earthlink.net>
To: <austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: surprise! god is in each of us...

> All of this is most interesting. So here is more fal de
rah..................
> One can read the books on comapartive religion and I once took a two
semester course in the subject  taught by some wirey old guy whose name
eludes me, he wanted you to recite parts of various religious texts from
memory.  We red the  Torah, Koran etc. there were no CLiff Notes. He agreed
that the Koran could not  really be understood by westerners, it doesn't
translate properly.
> Then neither do all the teachings of Zoroaster. His center of the world is
in the deserts of Iran. The Hindu and all the other teachings all go toward
the same direction of how to get along with your neighbor.
> The only problem it seems is that men came along and has to put in  his
two bits worth. If you aren't a Baptist  then you aint right  God and we
should force you to be right and possibly we should kill you to make you
right with God, either that or sit you in a pew and bore you into
converting. I was lucky to have a crazy father who decided at some point
that I needed religious training and took me to every church with in the
county and then some. He liked Oral Roberts and Mildred Wicks for the show.
The Catholics got an A plus for pomp and circumstance but lost a lot of his
favor when they gave up on Latin which he felt was a shame. The mosque was
also pretty cool, pretty short and lots of bowing, which would be really
tough on his war wounded knees.
> My uncle made me a Baptist every summer at Bible School where we sat and
watched cartoons about Christ.  There was also a radio show "The Greatest
Story Ever Told" and the Sunday funnies had "Stories from the Bible". We
never got any stories from the Koran or anyone elses view but it was a good
way to seed the minds of the people.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wayne Johnson
> To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
> Sent: 3/29/2004 7:06:12 AM
> Subject: Re: surprise! god is in each of us...
>
>
> My problem is that most of my early Church experience was filled with
horrid white anglo saxon protestant hypocricy and utter dismissal of other
religions whilst insisting that Jesus should be the half back on your
football team.  This drivel would stun a ground hog for its imbecility but
seemed to go over big in Georgetown in the Fifties.  The single person of
deep religious faith that I knew personally and respected was Rev. Heinsohn
of the University Methodist Church on the Drag. I worked there as a
night-time custodian whilst a student at UT.  He was a gentleman, a true
Biblical scholar and his sermons were absent of cliche or dumb harangues.
By any measure, a great person and a credit to our species.
>
> wj
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frances Morey
> To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 7:54 PM
> Subject: Re: surprise! god is in each of us...
>
>
> Wayne,
> These incidences of kindness are multiplied thousands of times as church
members all over are moved to help their fellow humans. I've seen it in
action and even experienced some of it myself in my darkest moments. The
church is the Other place, away from home and the husstle 'n' bustle of the
marketplace, where people can be quite and contemplative in humility,
surrounded by peace and quiet or ethereal music, and participating in the
familiar and predictable process of the liturgy, if a Mass, or listening to
preachments alternating with the singing of hymns, if they happen to be
protestant. I always prefered the Catholic practice of keeping the whole
service to an hour, homily and all. That is merely the excuse for being
together, though. Perhaps god is really the human matrix in which we immerse
ourselves and the churches are places we are able to find other humans who
are capable and willing to express good will--I believe that is so, anyway.
My church experiences have been as described and if not I certainly let them
hear about it. But that's another story.
> Frances
>
> Wayne Johnson <cadaobh@shentel.net> wrote:
> I just found out yesterday that a very dear friend of our in Reston has
> contract ALS and it has already progessed to the point where he can barely
> brush his teeth and can't clothe himself. He and his wife had joined a
> local Unitarian church a couple of years ago and these good people have
> taken it upon themselves to provide a world of kindness, gentleness, love
> and direct physical and emotional assistance to him and his wife. This
> includes visits, shopping trips with and without him, food deliveries and
> compansionship.
>
> To my old timey way of thinking, this is what "churches" used to do: love
> people and be supportive of those in need. Every so often it is good (for
me
> in particular) to be reminded that there are those who actually practice
> what their religion suggests is "Christian" behavior. Of course, the
> Unitarians aren't exactly boil! er-plate, orthodox, Holey-Rollers. I
believe
> Ben Franklin was a Unitarian and possibly G. Washington as well. Not
> exactly Bible thumpers. Many of these congregations accept neo-pagan
> beliefs without rancor. (Oddly, the only other church I have found with
> similar sentiments was a (Scottish) Episcopal church in Campbell, CA.
> Campbell being vurrry Scottish as a person and a clan.
>
> Anyway. Have to say sometimes the sysems works and works to the benefit of
> some who really, really deserve it.
>
> wj
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pepi Plowman"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:45 PM
> Subject: RE: let's not do nuance
>
>
> > Wayne, Judy, Tele,
> >
> > I'm with you all the way on the first part. God, what
> > God? Which God? But allow me to elaborate further,
> > below...
> > --- telebob wrote:
> > > Wayne-
> > >
> > >! ; I think as you do, and thank you for reminding us
> > > that most priests and
> > > factotems are basically criminals who spread
> > > cultural myths
> >
> > totally. Myths that preceded that particular religion
> > which the priests and factotems accepted as truth and
> > preached, or myths that were flagrantly made up to
> > suit a cultural bias in order to bring more ignorant
> > humans to the "fold".
> >
> > (all the better
> > > if they believe what they preach, it makes it easier
> > > for them to sleep)in
> > > order to retain and extend personal and
> > > institutional power. This is not to
> > > say that there are no benefits, since those common
> > > mythyologies help to
> > > create a 'public order' no matter what the standard.
> > > Are religious
> > > societies 'better' than secular societies?
> >
> > Fuck, no!
> >
> > How do
> > > ! we measure? These are
> > > topics worthy of millions of tomes, and indeed you
> > > know they are out there
> > > discussing this shit still, like a bunch of
> > > sophomores who have just
> > > dicovered 'philosophy'.
> >
> > How dare they abuse us by discussing them?! State and
> > religion should not mix, Point!
> > >
> > > But my dad, who was a doctor, was in a
> > > 'philosophical' mood one night, a
> > > little in his cups, and he related. "I watch people
> > > die and people born
> > > every day as a part of my job, and all I can say is,
> > > 'Where does the flame
> > > go when it goes out?' Does the flame have a soul?"
> >
> > So, did he ever answer his question, or did he just
> > ask?
> >
> > > He was not a religious
> > > man, though he tried to keep up appearances. On the
> > > other hand, he was
> > > 'moral' person w! ho enjoyed overpaying his taxes and
> > > never breaking a traffic
> > > law.
> > >
> > > So when we are approached by 'holy men' of any
> > > stripe, know you are being
> > > approached by the powers of darkness.
> >
> > Do you really believe there is a Big Boogyman out
> > there?!
> >
> > This includes
> > > rabbis, priests,
> > > mullahs, and most medicine men. I put my faith in
> > > the scientific method and
> > > its self correcting process.
> > >
> >
> > Man, I'd hate to be on the back end of a "self
> > correcting process" inflicted on me by a source
> > outside myself (like doctors and lawyers and
> > policemen) when I had resources available to me that
> > enabled me to kick metaphorical butt if I were to
> > employ them.
> >
> > > What do we have to look forward to? The peace of
> > > the grave.
> >
> > I'm sure it is! a relief!
> >
> > Heaven is here
> > > on earth, make the best of it. People who identify
> > > with their 'religions'
> > > are essentially deciding which 'team' they want to
> > > play on. Imagine it as
> > > though all religions are just sports teams, and you
> > > are free to join or not.
> > > But if you put on the uniform, then you have to play
> > > for your side, and you
> > > have to follow the coach and the quarterback's rules
> > > or get thrown out for
> > > being a 'bad sport.'
> > >
> > You've got to admit, it's better to play on a team in
> > which you like all the participants--it's hard to work
> > together, otherwise. We Ghettoans (and I include
> > myself therein reservedly, though I hung out in the
> > Ghetto) may not comprise a religion, but we're
> > certainly a group of human beings gathering together
> > to speak as/what they will. So! mething Quakers
> > did--the only "religion" that I might ever have
> > considered joining.
> >
> > I like to think of religions as all saying essentially
> > the same thing, therefore I don't have to belong to
> > any one of them. As for god(s), I doubt the existence
> > of a "personal god" who counts the hairs on my head or
> > the sands in the ocean. Gods are created by man in
> > their likeness. Beyond perhaps an intrinsic
> > knowingness on a nanochronic level, the biological
> > internet.
> >
> > > Religion and those who follow it are just like Roger
> > > says, tribal apes.
> >
> > I don't follow religion, except to avoid it. On the
> > other hand, I like to know all about it.
> >
> > God
> > > bless Thorsten Veblen and Madalyn Murray O'Hair.
> > >
> > I worked for her back in the seventies as circulation
> > director for American Atheist. She fired me I think
> > beca! use she suspected I was a Christian. I liked to
> > hang out in the library.
> >
> > pep
> >
> > > telegnostic
> >
> > p.s. the "gnostic" says it all--you know you don't
> > know, right?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net
> > > [mailto:austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net]On
> > > Behalf Of Wayne Johnson
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 5:20 PM
> > > To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
> > > Subject: Re: let's not do nuance
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh, I wish I didn't feel compelled to write this. I
> > > know, just know, that I
> > > will surely regret it. But I just can't find any
> > > sane and
> > > non-Transcendental argument for the existence of a
> > > "soul". I really,
> > > really wish it were true and that we could all come
> > > back again, but my
> > > b! elief is that when the "biological" light goes
> > > out...it stays out. Finito!
> > > No mas!
> > >
> > > From my perspective, we have some tens of thousands
> > > of years of "wishful"
> > > thinking aided and abetted by a bunch of
> > > semi-literate, semi-criminals who
> > > wish to profit by spreading mystical and irrational
> > > beliefs. Did Arthur go
> > > to Avalon? Probably not, as much as I would like it
> > > to be so. Ain't going
> > > to see him again. Nor any other person what has
> > > kicked the "biological"
> > > bucket. Doornails is doornails and when you is
> > > gone, you is over.
> > >
> > > So. What do I have to look forward to? Not a damn
> > > thing. Is that
> > > existential or what?
> > >
> > > Cheers until then...."Happy Trails to You, until we
> > > meet again".
> > >
> > > wj
> > >!
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Pepi Plowman"
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 5:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: let's try to do nuance
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Michael Eisenstadt
> > > wrote:
> > > > > Pepi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for writing at length about this.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, I don't speak it.
> > > > >
> > > > > In Hebrew school (to prepare for confirmation at
> > > 13
> > > > > for the sake of my religious grandmother who
> > > would
> > > > > have had a fit if I wasn't confirmed), we used
> > > to
> > > > > say
> > > > > Baruch ator, I don't know anymore.
> > > > >
> > > > > Baruch ator are th! e first 2 words of all the
> > > > > prayers.
> > > > > Actually we worked our way through quite a bit
> > > of
> > > > > Genesis reading it in the original which was my
> > > > > original
> > > > > introduction to the ENORMOUS charm of reading a
> > > > > foreign language.When I slowly worked my way
> > > through
> > > > >
> > > > > one of the books of the Iliad in the original
> > > many
> > > > > years
> > > > > later, I thought back to Miss Snow with the
> > > enormous
> > > > >
> > > > > boobs driving us like Gadarene swine through the
> > > > > beginning
> > > > > of the bible.
> > > >
> > > > Amusing visuals here!
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > As for your and your sisters' previous lives,
> > > that
> > >! ; > > sounds
> > > > > like hard work.
> > > >
> > > > Seems like it always is.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me get this straight: the jews burnt in the
> > > > > ovens
> > > > > came back as the Plowman sisters (or some of the
> > > > > Plowman sisters); the Nazis who died came back
> > > as
> > > > > Israelis.
> > > > >
> > > > > I still come back to this simple question: if
> > > you
> > > > > and your
> > > > > sisters love all people all that much, how do
> > > you
> > > > > come
> > > > > to the conclusion that the Israelis are reborn
> > > > > Nazis?
> > > >
> > > > A few Israelis, perhaps. Certainly, not all.
> > > This is
> > > > merely supposition, in any case, as we both know.
> > > But> > > I would say by observing the ones who manifest a
> > > > similar persona with a similar agenda (except for
> > > the
> > > > reversal of the victims), however you would
> > > describe a
> > > > Nazi. Sharon, perhaps? Hey, for all we know,
> > > Arafat
> > > > may have been a Jew in his past lifetime!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > You write:
> > > > >
> > > > > > But may you not hate too much, it's bad for
> > > the
> > > > > soul
> > > > > > (I know, you don't believe in its existence.
> > > Oh,
> > > > > > well, so be it).
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
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