[AGL] Re: [FedUp] A bit more action-reaction kneejerkedness...

Harry Edwards laughingwolf at ev1.net
Sun Mar 19 09:57:44 EST 2006 

The Dog not the Dogma. Now Frances, I happen to agree with you from  
time to time. (Lemme see, when was the last time .  . .  ?) And  
substance is in the eye of the beholder. (Among other things) I only  
chimed in when you seemed to imply that organic produce was merely the  
veggies without the external pesticides.

On Mar 18, 2006, at 9:43 PM, Frances Morey wrote:

> Harry can also be counted on to oppose anything I say whether or not  
> he has anything substantive to add to the discussion. Maybe he is  
> offended by my previous reference to Dimikinky. Oops, that post didn't  
> make it. I may be able to resend it.
>  
> Frances
>
> Wayne Johnson <cadaobh at shentel.net> wrote:
>> Frances.
>>  
>> Good points all but trying to have a rational argument with Gerry is  
>> like trying to have one with GWB.  Minds made up and committed to  
>> dogma rarely flex.
>>  
>> wgJ
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Frances Morey
>>> To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 5:09 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AGL] Re: [FedUp] A bit more action-reaction  
>>> kneejerkedness...
>>>
>>> In response to Gerry's pontificating: But why waste my time, I  
>>> wonder?
>>>  
>>> Have you lost your taste buds, girl?
>>>  
>>> A blind t aste test is the only way such a broadside could be  
>>> measured.
>>>  
>>> ... 35 to 40% more nutrition...
>>>  
>>> Another baseless statistic off the top of the head. Where's the  
>>> evidence?
>>>  
>>> ...in a typical row of say 50 plants, the insects will only eat  
>>> those which are the runts of the litter..
>>>  
>>> That is really off the wall--insects eat according to however big  
>>> their population has grown--think hoards of locusts who eat every  
>>> available chloroblast. Insects have yet to be tested for for their  
>>> ability to discern plant's age-determined palatability. The law of  
>>> the jungle usually applies to animals, Gerry. It's fire that kills  
>>> trees, trees try to overpower one another and vines that try to kill  
>>> trees, kinda like a scissors, paper, rock. Of course, the activities  
>>> of humans kill 'em all, environmental considerations be  
>>> damned--think Easter Islanders.
>>>  
>>> ... big green cutworms who eat the whole plant before it makes  
>>> fruit. These must be removed by hand (wear a glove). Kids like this  
>>> activity and generally do a good job since the plants are at eye  
>>> level to them...
>>>  
>>> My gramma and me as a toddler in our matching bonnets used to pluck  
>>> insects off our carefully tended plants at dawn when they are most  
>>> likely to be chomping away. Caterpillars go into hiding at full  
>>> daylight when birds can see them, or the sun's too hot. We had a  
>>> garden the size of a city lot and watered by flood irriga tion from  
>>> the faucet at the high end of the plot. Gramma would carefully hoe  
>>> channels to each of the planted rows. The system worked quite well,  
>>> even easier than watering by hand held hose, and the water from our  
>>> well didn't cost us anything.
>>>  
>>> ... Most likely any bites on the surface of the fruit are from  
>>> birds...
>>>  
>>> Yikes, with avian flu in the wings, so to speak, this could be  
>>> deadly!
>>>  
>>> ...Hopefully some of the exorbitant price you pay goes to trabajeros  
>>> from Mexico...
>>>  
>>> Dream on, Gerry. You know better than that. Huelga, Now!
>>>  
>>> ...ones which are not cosmetically acceptable for the WF shelves  
>>> (taste the same)....
>>>  
>>> Hmmm. Here we go predicting that which can only be determined  
>>> by taste test. Who do you know who conducts blind taste tests?
>>>  
>>> Good grief, I apparently do what Gerry does--disagree with each  
>>> and every assertion, regardless of right or wong headed.  It must be  
>>> as catching as avian flu.
>>>  
>>> Susi,
>>> I feel sorry for Eugene. Has Walmart landed there yet?
>>> Frances
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wayne Johnson <cadaobh at shentel.net> wrote:
>>>> Jeez, even when Gerry has some good ideas about things, he still  
>>>> manages to be a complete ass-hole!  I guess being a rude,  
>>>> disrespectful, smug and only partially informed Jerk has become a  
>>>> permanent way of life for him.  How sad.
>>>>  
>>>> wgJ
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: susan
>>>>> To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:37 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AGL] Re: [FedUp] A couple of items for the grocery  
>>>>> discussion...
>>>>>
>>>>> whole foods is coming to eugene, however they had a contingency  
>>>>> clause that said the city would fund a parking garage to be built  
>>>>> by their contractor, or no deal,  eugene has plenty of upscale  
>>>>> organic grocery stores, though nothing on the order of whole  
>>>>> foods.  after lots of public dismay, the city council okayed the  
>>>>> deal, so long to the small guys who've been here for years  
>>>>> providing organic produce and herbal/alternative health items as a  
>>>>> choice to safeway/albertsons type stores. i'm sure the store will  
>>>>> look good from the new federal courthouse being built across the  
>>>>> stre et. way to go eugene..
>>>>> susi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> on 3/18/06 12:38 PM, Gerry at mesmo at gilanet.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The wealth in America is staggering, unprecidented in human  
>>>>>> history.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And so is the debt...The new bu dget bill, courtesy of the  
>>>>>> conservatives in the white house, adds $30K for every man, woman,  
>>>>>> and child. Need an economic boom? Increase the credit card limits  
>>>>>> by 50% and watch the dow rise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After all a tomato is a tomato is a tomato. What is the opposite  
>>>>>> of organic anyway, inorganic?
>>>>>> Pesticides can be washed off. Who would find it more desirable to  
>>>>>> share the food supply with insects than wash their produce with  
>>>>>> soap and water? Often shoppers will turn up their noses at any  
>>>>>> evidence of insect bites which are inevitable without some form  
>>>>>> of an insecticide shield.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frances, when you go out on a limb like this I for one wonder if  
>>>>>> you really know anything about food or not. The chemically grown,  
>>>>>> thick-skin ned, pulpy crap that passes for a tomato at the local  
>>>>>> super market compared to a real heirloom fruit grown in mineral  
>>>>>> rich soil is like night and day. Lab studies reveal that organic  
>>>>>> means about 35 to 40% more nutrition. Have you lost your t aste  
>>>>>> buds, girl? The opposite of organic is chemical. Sharing the food  
>>>>>> supply with insects is the natural and inescapable way. But in a  
>>>>>> typical row of say 50 plants, the insects will only eat those  
>>>>>> which are the runts of the litter. The biggest, healthiest plants  
>>>>>> ward them off. The real enemy of tomato plants is the big green  
>>>>>> cutworms who eat the whole plant before it makes fruit. These  
>>>>>> must be removed by hand (wear a glove). Kids like this activity  
>>>>>> and generally do a good job since the plants are at eye level to  
>>>>>> them. Most likely any bites on the surface of the fruit are from  
>>>>>> birds. Even the tomatoes at the health food outlets in winter are  
>>>>>> quite pulpy and often thick-skinned. Hydrophonically grown fruit  
>>>>>> is to me tasteless and weird.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As we speak I am starting tomato plants inside, about 7 varieties  
>>>>>> this year. They won't go into the ground until after the frost  
>>>>>> threat (mid May). The rows they will occupy are currently  
>>>>>> sporting a crop of winter whea t which will be plowed under in a  
>>>>>> few weeks, adding to the micro-organism base below which is fed  
>>>>>> by layers of cow manure, straw, and leaves which have been down  
>>>>>> there cooking since mid January, kept damp by buried soak hose.  
>>>>>> Lots of worms already on the scene.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tomato plants will be transplanted in a double handful of  
>>>>>> fresh compost, then topped by a cage of hogwire. Around the cages  
>>>>>> I will string an agricultural fabric (agribon) which covers the  
>>>>>> cage and creates an environment which keeps out the bugs and some  
>>>>>> of the UV rays as well as the wind, completely covered. Also  
>>>>>> helps keep them warm at night, a big plus in the desert. The  
>>>>>> result is soft-skinned fruits which knock your socks off at the  
>>>>>> fi rst bite. The surplus is cut into thin strips and dried in a  
>>>>>> dehydrator for use in winter. The thinner the strip the less  
>>>>>> electricity it takes to dry. You can also dry them in the sun,  
>>>>>> laid out on a flat surface covered with agribon to keep the flies  
>>>>>> off. The machine is quicker and produces more uniform results.  
>>>>>> Most of last year's crop is now gone, consumed in soups or added  
>>>>>> to essene bread dough. Long live tomatoes!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can find cooperatives on the internet which will sell you  
>>>>>> packaged and dried organic produce at a decent price. Organize  
>>>>>> some friends and buy it bulk. As for the fresh stuff, court a  
>>>>>> neighbor with a garden, or, heaven forbid, learn to grow it  
>>>>>> yourself. Lots of little old ladies in my community who thrive on  
>>>>>> and with their gardens. Even the patio style of gardening beats  
>>>>>> paying an arm and a leg for inferior food at the markets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In defense of Whole Foods, it does take more care and thus hands  
>>>>>> on labor to grow good veggies. Hopefully some of the exorbitant  
>>>>>> price you pay goes to trabajeros from Mexico who do the work that  
>>>>>> puts the food on our tables. A friend of mine signed a contract  
>>>>>> with WF recently to grow winter squash for them this year. He  
>>>>>> gets $.6 0 a pound. It will sell for over $2.00  a pound  
>>>>>> eventually. But WF sends trucks down here to pick it up and haul  
>>>>>> it ABQ/Santa Fe, something he cannot do. I will pick around his  
>>>>>> field and score some good fruits--or wait and take the ones which  
>>>>>> are not cosmetically acceptable for the WF shelves (taste the  
>>>>>> same).
>>>>>> G
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Frances Morey <mailto:frances_morey at yahoo.com>  
>>>>>>> To: Jane Walker <mailto:mejane52 at yahoo.com>  
>>>>>>> Cc: Austin List <mailto:austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>  
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:20 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [AGL] Re: [FedUp] A couple of items for the grocery  
>>>>>>> discussion...
>>>>>>> Hi, Jane,
>>>>>>> I can credit you with the early-on info on Whole Foods...
>>>>>>> Write once in a while.
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Frances
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frances Morey <frances_morey at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> One early-on employee told me that first-time-shoppers at WF  
>>>>>>>> would cruise the lanes and fill up their baskets as usual only  
>>>>>>>> to find that the total after check-out was as much as double  
>>>>>>>> what they were used to paying. On many occasions, she told me,  
>>>>>>>> such shoppers would turn away and leave their full grocery  
>>>>>>>> basket behind without paying, stunned from market shock.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whole Foods is more about conspicous consumption than anthing  
>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>> The wealth in America is staggering, unprecidented in human  
>>>>>>>> history. Any venue for showing it off is embraced, even grocery  
>>>>>>>> shopping. I go to WF as I would to a restaurant and think of it  
>>>>>>>> as the biggest deli on earth. I'm glad to know that WF pays  
>>>>>>>> well, which not always reflects in employee attention to  
>>>>>>>> customers. I discontinued using Celes tial Seasoning tea when I  
>>>>>>>> saw a mention in a business zine that bragged about their  
>>>>>>>> paying minimum wage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for turning us on to the Johnson Farm on Holly St. I saw  
>>>>>>>> it and thought it was some kind of community garden. I paid $4  
>>>>>>>> .50 last Wednesday for their smallest brownie and two little  
>>>>>>>> turnips at Boggy Creek Farm, paying for the the chance to see  
>>>>>>>> their chickens, old timey garden and hob nobbing more than for  
>>>>>>>> the food. The boquet of snapdragons cost as much as a similar  
>>>>>>>> sized boquet of roses at HEB.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I preferred Trader Toms (or something like that) when I was in  
>>>>>>>> San Francisco. It was kinda like a chain of Wheatsville Co-ops  
>>>>>>>> with even more reasonable pricing. Before Alamo Drafthouse  
>>>>>>>> South captured the old Fiesta, nee City Market, location on S.  
>>>>>>>> Lamar I envisioned a Tom's as a kick ass competitor to both WF,  
>>>>>>>> Central Market and Wheatsville. Ah, no luck. They only operate  
>>>>>>>> on the West Coast and up East.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frances Morey
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sherry Coldsmith <sherry at coldchrist.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The first link is to an article that rags on Whole Foods.  The  
>>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>> link may be of interest to Austinites who really do want to buy
>>>>>>>>> locally.  I get my veg from Johns on's and the quality if  
>>>>>>>>> superb.   Tho
>>>>>>>>> you have some control over what they bring you in the weekly or
>>>>>>>>> bi-weekly box, you'll also get some exotics, like kohlrabi,  
>>>>>>>>> which will
>>>>>>>>> require you to sharpen your culinary skills and look up a few  
>>>>>>>>> recipes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sherry
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.slate.com/id/2138176/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.localharvest.org/farms/M12509
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey you - we like you being here!  But, if you don't wanna,  
>>>>>>>> send an email to:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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