[AGL] reply to Michele's statement

[michele mason]

Indeed, very lucky; very blessed.  mm

On Nov 2, 2006, at 4:46 PM, Jon Ford wrote:

>
> Michele-- I am glad to know I have a choice in the matter! Lucky me.
>
> Jon
>
>> From: Michele Mason <yaya.m at earthlink.net>
>> Reply-To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the  
>> 60s<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>> To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the  
>> 60s<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>> Subject: Re: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement
>> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 15:13:11 -0600
>>
>> Free will exists and so does the lack of it. That is one of my  
>> favorite mysteries. The Trinity was much easier for me—where as  
>> this one promises so much more mystical quiet until the answer  
>> comes—maybe not this side of the veil. Choose to be happy.  mm
>>
>> On Nov 2, 2006, at 1:48 PM, Jon Ford wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Bill== Free will? Read some more philosophy. There are plenty of  
>>> philosophers who would defend the concept of free will/free choice,  
>>> even without the prop of a wise creator-God. You are simply being  
>>> dogmatic,asserting a claim without evidence. You could argue that  
>>> people who believe in free will have a burden to prove it exists,  
>>> but you can't just state like some tin-pot prophet "free will is a  
>>> delusion!"
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>> From: "Bill Irwin" <billi at aloha.net>
>>>> Reply-To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the  
>>>> 60s<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>>>> To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the  
>>>> 60s"<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement
>>>> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 09:23:10 -1000
>>>>
>>>> Pretty good deconstruction Mike.
>>>> If you want wisdom you first have to get rid of delusions.  One  
>>>> delusion
>>>> that should go first is that one has free will.
>>>> Aloha
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Michael Eisenstadt" <michaele at ando.pair.com>
>>>> To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s"
>>>> <austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 5:58 AM
>>>> Subject: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Michele,
>>>> >
>>>> > You have often spoken to me on this subject but never at such
>>>> > length. Permit me to reply interlinearly to some of what you've  
>>>> written.
>>>> >
>>>> > >I believe that God (or whatever name you choose) made us
>>>> > because He/She needed love—that in some way He was lonely
>>>> > and because He had a need to "see Himself"
>>>> >
>>>> > According to Hegel, the attempt "to see Himself/Oneself" is the
>>>> > ultimate exercise of human consciousness. This suggests to me
>>>> > that the attributes you have identified as God's are merely
>>>> > human projections.
>>>> >
>>>> > >He placed us in a perfect place where all our needs were met  
>>>> (without
>>>> > spilling a drop of blood). He gave us free will—otherwise  
>>>> how would we
>>>> > be like Him and what would our love be worth if we didn't choose  
>>>> it?
>>>> >
>>>> > Once again, why does free will require a God? Logically, in  
>>>> assuming
>>>> > the existence of God, you are committing the error of petitio
>>>> > principii (assuming the conclusion as your starting point).
>>>> >
>>>> > Now I know that you will remind me of your personal experiences
>>>> > with you know who. That solves the petitio principii problem. But
>>>> > that brings up the veracity of testimonial or testifying. Would  
>>>> that I
>>>> > could accept testimony. Testimony is worthless unless confirmed.
>>>> >
>>>> > >Then came curiosity. Had things progressed in the way He wanted,  
>>>> we
>>>> > would have been good, obedient students, matching knowledge with  
>>>> wisdom
>>>> > and growing towards oneness with Him.
>>>> > The Tree of Knowledge was not all about sex, it was about sex and
>>>> > everything else. Seduced by instant gratification, we  
>>>> transgressed—not
>>>> > waiting to learn wisdom as He intended to teach us.
>>>> >
>>>> > You are assuming that "seduced by instant gratification" is a bad
>>>> > thing. You may know this from personal experience. But that is
>>>> > not my personal experience. I see absolutely no reason why instant
>>>> > sexual or other gratification is bad.
>>>> >
>>>> > As for wisdom which we all crave, to believe that the deity  
>>>> desires
>>>> > that we pursue it, that too is a human projection, an admirable
>>>> > one to be sure. There has been a little progress in the human
>>>> > pursuit of wisdom. A necessary condition was the invention of
>>>> > writing. Part of our progress towards wisdom consists of
>>>> > practicing the ascesis of avoiding logical errors. Part of it has
>>>> > been the realization that received beliefs (about God and on
>>>> > other subjects) are to be examined closely for possible errors.
>>>> > Then we can try to think through the issues. If there is no
>>>> > reason and no evidence for a belief in God (my viewpoint),
>>>> > it is best abandonned as an impediment to the pursuit of
>>>> > wisdom.
>>>> >
>>>> > That's as far as i got in your letter at this time.
>>>> >
>>>> > Mike
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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