[Jacob-list] Re:Primitive sheep/ Jacob affectionanodos
Gary and Nancy Claver
sheepspots at digitex.net
Mon Jan 19 12:48:18 EST 2004
Just wanted to chime in and say how much I am enjoying this vehicle for
Jacob lovers. It is hard to find knowledgeable people who share our
enthusiasm for the Jacobs and are raising them.
. I find we are a diverse, friendly, very willing to share group, who all
love our Jacobs. I really hope to meet many of you next summer at
Prineville.
Quick comments: we dock our lambs (not too short tho) and have no trouble.
Probably stems from years in the commercial sheep, Rambouillet, business,
that we prefer them this way. We find avoiding the cartilage in the ear
usually presents little or no problems with putting in the ear tags
.I think one of the qualities , of many, that make the Jacobs unique is
their primitiveness. We try to stress this to all sheep buyers,"Just let
them be sheep" and one will do well. Another piece of advice we give each
buyer is not to feed the sheep with any pet goats with "goat" feed. We have
had one experienced stockman lose a couple because of the copper in the goat
feed. It has been difficult to find exact information on this but recently
one of the Texas A & M experiment stations that have Jacobs said "no" copper
in the feed. Hope maybe this will benefit someone that is not aware of
this.
Thanks for letting me participate.
----- Original Message -----
From: <jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com>
To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 1:18 AM
Subject: Jacob-list digest, Vol 2 #25 - 4 msgs
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: comparisons across the Pond (Betty Berlenbach)
> 2. Hard to Find Jacob book available (Hobsickle at aol.com)
> 3. Re: Hard to find Jacob Book (MarmontJacobs at aol.com)
> 4. mag. articles (Victoria da Roza)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Betty Berlenbach" <lambfarm at sover.net>
> To: "gordon johnston" <gordon at westergladstone.fsnet.co.uk>
> Cc: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] comparisons across the Pond
> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 06:56:55 -0500
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Thank you, Juliet,. for clearing up a lot of stuff for me. You =
> certainly have some excellent points. I guess my "all or nothing" =
> tendencies show up as much as the next person's for how is culling out =
> pink noses regardless any different from docking all lambs, regardless? =
> Just shows we're all human! Thanks for bringing me down to earth. =
> Betty!
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: gordon johnston=20
> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com=20
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 7:48 PM
> Subject: [Jacob-list] comparisons across the Pond
>
>
> Hi Betty and all
> Yes, sad though it is, the JSS over here does seem to be concerned =
> with 'improving ' the British Jacob and we are delighted that over there =
> you are not. However, the picture here is not as bad as you portray :
> <<< These (Betty's) are REAL sheep, to my way of thinking, not the =
> pathetic, genetically engineered wimps who can't count to two at lambing =
> time and don't keep their babies clean, and need lots of intervention. =
> Those aren't sheep; they're mutants! to my way of thinking. They might =
> have great fleece to spin. They might be pretty., But if they can't =
> take care of themselves for the most part, then I don't want them. >>>
> Not even the show sheep could be described as pathetic or unable to =
> look after their lambs and certainly none are genetically modified. =
> Gordon and I are not at all happy with the way Jacobs here in Britain =
> are becoming larger, to the extent that some of the show specimens could =
> be described as fat, but there are still plenty of smaller, hardy , =
> thrifty Jacobs out here, well able to lamb outside, care for their lambs =
> and count to three.
> Our feeling is that the reported birthing difficulties and high =
> intervention rate may be the result of lambing in January indoors, with =
> overweight ewes. When we first got our Jacobs a few years ago, from one =
> of the big breeders here, we were told that they could not lamb outdoors =
> and needed X amount of commercial concentrate mix. We had big problems. =
> Once we got to know a bit more about Jacobs and about primitive sheep, =
> we kept the lot together outdoors all winter, gave them a minimum of dry =
> food (but ad lib hay) and let them get on with it. Those same (now =
> rather elderly ) ewes last year all lambed outside without any =
> intervention and produced either twins or triplets without a single =
> problem. I'm not sure what you mean about them not keeping their babies =
> bottoms clean - the Jacobs all clean their lambs backsides just as well =
> as any other primitive. The only sheep I am aware of which has a poor =
> reputation for mothering is the Suffolk. I did mention having to work at =
> keeping lambs bottoms clean when they go onto lush grass but that is =
> when they are a couple of months old and way past having their behinds =
> licked.
>
> <<< And I try to be very diligent at sorting out the cosmetic =
> characteristics which have been proven to be indicators of "improvement" =
> campaigns in the past, for fear my precious cheeky jacobs will become =
> "just sheep".>>>
> When I said <<< ... all you are doing is selecting out the longer =
> tails but not any of the other features coming from the other breeds, =
> which will not be bound to the tail length and may not be so easily =
> visible...... you are only tweaking the phenotype not the genotype.>>> I =
> did not explain very well. What I am trying to say is that if you cull =
> an animal with, say, a longer than desirable tail, because that is a =
> sign of past 'improvement' attempts, all you are doing is removing an =
> animal with a long tail ; you are not removing the genes from the other =
> breed. For example, if a very bad tempered man with blue eyes has a =
> child with blue eyes, it will not also necessarily be bad tempered - the =
> genes for the two characteristics, while coming from the same parent are =
> not passed on together - the bad temper may be passed to a different =
> offspring , with green eyes. With the alleged Dorset blood, the pink =
> nose may be passed down the generations to some descendants, but those =
> same descendants will not necessarily be the same ones who have =
> inherited the greater size, or any other Dorset characteristics. So =
> when you cull those lambs you may think that you are eliminating any =
> Dorset blood from your breeding pool - you are eliminating some, but =
> other lambs will get through your net, with dark noses but nonetheless =
> Dorset genes. From your quote above, it is very unlikely that pink noses =
> have been inherited along with a docile, non-cheeky temperament, =
> although of course it could be so.( Having said that, we don't like pink =
> noses on our Jacobs, so would not breed from them.)
> I find this something of a quandary, as we can never get rid of the =
> alien blood, unless perhaps our animals are fully genotyped, and who =
> could afford that. On the other hand we can and should be very vigilant =
> to prevent any further crossbreeding. I am always amazed at how few =
> generations pass before obvious signs of crossing disappear and the new =
> animal can pass as a purebred member of the breed. All it takes is an =
> unscrupulous breeder who lies about his pedigrees. BTW in case any of =
> you over there think that the alleged crossing with Dorsets, or any =
> other breed was sanctioned by the JSS, I don't believe that was the case =
> and it is strongly denied that it happened at all......
>
> Going back to tails, I had assumed that by preferring tails to be not =
> below the hock, your breed societies are trying to keep out blood from =
> local longer tailed sheep, not Northern short tails. I don't know how =
> long the Dorset tails are, but I don't think they are ground draggers.
> Incidentally, if as we suspect the Hebrideans have picked up some =
> Jacob blood during their years together in the English Parklands, then =
> it seems logical to assume that the Jacobs have also picked up some =
> Hebridean blood.
>
> Over the years we have kept Jacobs, Gordon and I have tried hard to =
> get breeders here to appreciate the primitive characteristics of their =
> sheep, but without success - they simply do not understand why that =
> might be desirable. But we have found that there are many many breeders =
> who keep Jacobs but are not members of the JSS and dislike the spotty =
> mammoths as much as we do - so there's still some hope for the primitive =
> Jacob over here.
> Juliet in Scotland UK
> ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3DCC7.180B4420
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
> charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you, Juliet,. for clearing up a =
> lot of stuff=20
> for me. You certainly have some excellent points. I guess my =
> "all or=20
> nothing" tendencies show up as much as the next person's for how is =
> culling out=20
> pink noses regardless any different from docking all lambs, =
> regardless? =20
> Just shows we're all human! Thanks for bringing me down to earth.=20
> Betty!</FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
> BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <DIV=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
> black"><B>From:</B>=20
> <A title=3Dgordon at westergladstone.fsnet.co.uk=20
> href=3D"mailto:gordon at westergladstone.fsnet.co.uk">gordon johnston</A> =
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
> title=3Djacob-list at jacobsheep.com=20
> =
> href=3D"mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com">jacob-list at jacobsheep.com</A> =
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 16, 2004 =
> 7:48=20
> PM</DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Jacob-list] =
> comparisons across=20
> the Pond</DIV>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi Betty and all</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Yes, sad though it is, the JSS over here does seem =
> to be=20
> concerned with 'improving ' the British Jacob and we are delighted =
> that over=20
> there you are not. However, the picture here is not as bad as =
> you=20
> portray :</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT><FONT size=3D2><<< These =
> (Betty's) are=20
> REAL sheep, to my way of thinking, not the pathetic, genetically =
> engineered=20
> wimps who can't count to two at lambing time and don't keep their =
> babies=20
> clean, and need lots of intervention. Those aren't sheep; =
> they're=20
> mutants! to my way of thinking. They might have great fleece to=20
> spin. They might be pretty., But if they can't take care =
> of=20
> themselves for the most part, then I don't want=20
> them. >>></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Not even the show sheep could be described as =
> pathetic or=20
> unable to look after their lambs and certainly none are genetically=20
> modified. Gordon and I are not at all happy with the =
> way=20
> Jacobs here in Britain are becoming larger, to the extent that some of =
> the=20
> show specimens could be described as fat, but there are still plenty =
> of=20
> smaller, hardy , thrifty Jacobs out here, well able to lamb outside, =
> care for=20
> their lambs and count to three.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Our feeling is that the reported birthing =
> difficulties and=20
> high intervention rate may be the result of lambing in =
> January=20
> indoors, with overweight ewes. When we first got our Jacobs a few =
> years ago,=20
> from one of the big breeders here, we were told that they could not =
> lamb=20
> outdoors and needed X amount of commercial concentrate mix. =
> We had=20
> big problems. Once we got to know a bit more about Jacobs and about =
> primitive=20
> sheep, we kept the lot together outdoors all winter, gave them a =
> minimum of=20
> dry food (but ad lib hay) and let them get on with it. Those =
> same (now=20
> rather elderly ) ewes last year all lambed outside without any =
> intervention=20
> and produced either twins or triplets without a single problem. =
> I'm not=20
> sure what you mean about them not keeping their babies bottoms clean - =
> the=20
> Jacobs all clean their lambs backsides just as well as any other=20
> primitive. The only sheep I am aware of which has a poor =
> reputation for=20
> mothering is the Suffolk. I did mention having to work at keeping =
> lambs=20
> bottoms clean when they go onto lush grass but that is when they are a =
> couple=20
> of months old and way past having their behinds licked.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><<< And I try to be very diligent at =
> sorting=20
> out the cosmetic characteristics which have been proven to be =
> indicators of=20
> "improvement" campaigns in the past, for fear my precious cheeky =
> jacobs will=20
> become "just sheep".>>></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When I said =
> <<< ...<FONT=20
> size=3D2> all you are doing is selecting out the longer tails but not =
> any of the=20
> other features coming from the other breeds, which will not be bound =
> to the=20
> tail length and may not be so easily visible...... you are only =
> tweaking the=20
> phenotype not the genotype.>>> I did not explain =
> very=20
> well. What I am trying to say is that if you cull an animal =
> with, say, a=20
> longer than desirable tail, because that is a sign of past =
> 'improvement'=20
> attempts, all you are doing is removing an animal with a long tail ; =
> you are=20
> not removing the genes from the other breed. For example, if a very =
> bad=20
> tempered man with blue eyes has a child with blue eyes, it will not =
> also=20
> necessarily be bad tempered - the genes for the two characteristics, =
> while=20
> coming from the same parent are not passed on together - the bad =
> temper may be=20
> passed to a different offspring , with green eyes. With the =
> alleged=20
> Dorset blood, the pink nose may be passed down the generations to some =
>
> descendants, but those same descendants will not necessarily be the =
> same ones=20
> who have inherited the greater size, or any other Dorset=20
> characteristics. So when you cull those lambs you may think that =
> you are=20
> eliminating any Dorset blood from your breeding pool - you are =
> eliminating=20
> some, but other lambs will get through your net, with dark noses but=20
> nonetheless Dorset genes. From your quote above, it is very unlikely =
> that pink=20
> noses have been inherited along with a docile, non-cheeky temperament, =
>
> although of course it could be so.( Having said that, we don't like =
> pink noses=20
> on our Jacobs, so would not breed from them.)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I find this something of a quandary, as we can =
> never get rid=20
> of the alien blood, unless perhaps our animals are fully genotyped, =
> and who=20
> could afford that. On the other hand we can and should be very =
> vigilant to=20
> prevent any further crossbreeding. I am always amazed at how few =
>
> generations pass before obvious signs of crossing disappear and the =
> new animal=20
> can pass as a purebred member of the breed. All it takes is an =
> unscrupulous=20
> breeder who lies about his pedigrees. BTW in case any of you =
> over there=20
> think that the alleged crossing with Dorsets, or any other breed was=20
> sanctioned by the JSS, I don't believe that was the case and it is =
> strongly=20
> denied that it happened at all......</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Going back to tails, I had assumed that by =
> preferring tails=20
> to be not below the hock, your breed societies are trying to keep out =
> blood=20
> from local longer tailed sheep, not Northern short tails. I =
> don't know=20
> how long the Dorset tails are, but I don't think they are ground=20
> draggers.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Incidentally, if as we suspect the Hebrideans have =
> picked up=20
> some Jacob blood during their years together in the English Parklands, =
> then it=20
> seems logical to assume that the Jacobs have also picked up some =
> Hebridean=20
> blood.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Over the years we have kept Jacobs, Gordon and I =
> have tried=20
> hard to get breeders here to appreciate the primitive characteristics =
> of their=20
> sheep, but without success - they simply do not understand why that =
> might be=20
> desirable. But we have found that there are many many breeders who =
> keep Jacobs=20
> but are not members of the JSS and dislike the spotty mammoths as much =
> as we=20
> do - so there's still some hope for the primitive Jacob over=20
> here.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Juliet in Scotland =
> UK</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3DCC7.180B4420--
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: Hobsickle at aol.com
> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 07:19:03 EST
> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Hard to Find Jacob book available
>
>
> -------------------------------1074341942
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> For those of you looking for Jacob Sheep literature, a copy of A.R.
Werner's
> book, AN ENQUIRY INTO THE ORIGIN OF PIEBALD OR "JACOB" SHEEP, is currently
> available on eBay.
>
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3580817380&category=1111
4)
>
> This little (80 page) paperback was printed in England some years ago.
(Mine
> is a second printing dated 1988--not sure when the first printing was.)
It
> is awkward reading (at least I think so) and everyone doesn't agree with
the
> author's conclusions, but it is the most in-depth works on the subject
that I've
> been able to find.
>
> -------------------------------1074341942
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META charset=3DUTF-8 http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html;
charse=
> t=3Dutf-8">
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
> <BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
> <DIV>For those of you looking for Jacob Sheep literature, a copy of A.R.
Wer=
> ner's book, AN ENQUIRY INTO THE ORIGIN OF PIEBALD OR "JACOB" SHEEP, is
curre=
> ntly available on eBay. (<A
href=3D"http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d=
>
ll?ViewItem&item=3D3580817380&category=3D11114">http://cgi.ebay.com/
=
>
ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D3580817380&category=3D11114</A>)&nb
=
> sp; </DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>This little (80 page) paperback was printed in England some years
ago.&=
> nbsp; (Mine is a second printing dated 1988--not sure when the first
printin=
> g was.) It is awkward reading (at least I think so) and everyone
doesn=
> 't agree with the author's conclusions, but it is the
most in-depth&nbs=
> p;works on the subject that I've been able to find.</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> -------------------------------1074341942--
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: MarmontJacobs at aol.com
> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:28:57 EST
> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Re: Hard to find Jacob Book
>
>
> --part1_c4.3404b64.2d3a9299_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Hi...my copy cost me under $2 brand new from one of the cut price book
shops
> that frequent the agricultural shows here in UK...if anyone wants one,
then
> I'll see if any are around this summer...
>
> Trisha M-S, Marmont Jacobs, Wales
>
> --part1_c4.3404b64.2d3a9299_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=3D2
PTSIZE=3D10>Hi...my=
> copy cost me under $2 brand new from one of the cut price book shops that
f=
> requent the agricultural shows here in UK...if anyone wants one, then I'll
s=
> ee if any are around this summer...<BR>
> <BR>
> Trisha M-S, Marmont Jacobs, Wales</FONT></HTML>
>
> --part1_c4.3404b64.2d3a9299_boundary--
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:46:24 -0800 (PST)
> From: Victoria da Roza <castlerockjacobs at yahoo.com>
> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Subject: [Jacob-list] mag. articles
>
> I think it was last year that HOBBY FARM magazine had
> a cover and inside story on Jacob sheep. I did not
> think it was a completely accurate article. Then
> SMALL FARM TODAY has had some articles that include
> mentions of Jacobs for small farmers. That would be
> in the last 2 years that I subscribed. V.
>
> =====
> Victoria
> Castle Rock Farm
> Jacob Sheep & Nigerian Dwarf Goats
> www.castlerockfarm.net
>
> __________________________________
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> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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