[Jacob-list] Primitive and history

[Cheryl Terrano]

Nice point, Chris....you are right about the King James verse. It reads  "32I will pass through all thy flock to day, removing from thence all the speckled and spotted cattle, and all the brown cattle among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats: and of such shall be my hire"

But I must say when you read vs.32 in practically every other Bible version (including the New King James), the verse reads "....32 Let me go through all your flocks today and remove from them every speckled or spotted sheep, every dark-colored lamb and every spotted or speckled goat. They will be my wages." (That quote is from the NIV and is similar in various other translations).  

Here is the New King James Version "32 Let me pass through all your flock today, removing from there all the speckled and spotted sheep, and all the brown ones among the lambs, and the spotted and speckled among the goats; and these shall be my wages."

Off the 'sheep history' perspective...one must also consider the KJV is an ENGLISH translation. So, if the King James is the only one which can be relied upon, what do all the people across the globe do who don't speak English? About 80% of the worlds Bibles are printed in English using English translation from the original texts but only about 2% of the worlds population speaks English.  

Even most Biblical Scholars will say the King James is still somewhat flawed. After all, there were 54 scholars working on that project and the English language itself is at best confusing to someone trying to learn it. Most will go on to say the Tyndale and/or Geneva were the ones most true to the original text. The arguments vary. One thing, however, remains the same and that is God Himself. For that, I am eternally grateful.

Cheryl in WV 
http://www.paintedrockfarm.com 

God longs to bring us to the place where we ache so much with His heart that to do nothing is simply no longer an option. (MATT REDMAN, The Unquenchable Worshipper) 

We will live as strangers and pilgrims on this earth, with sacrifice, commitment, tears and fasting, and touch the lost world with our lifestyle and commitment. (KP YOHANNAN, Founder, GOSPEL FOR ASIA) 

WHEN EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE SHAKEN IS SHAKEN, THE ANCHOR THAT HOLDS IS THE WISDOM OF THE CROSS. (Jason Upton, Key of David Ministries, from the CD 1200 ft below sea level). 

If you want to see God's power at work, you must get out of the church and into the world. Watch the extravagant lengths which God will go to reveal Himself to people who don't know Him. Then you will learn how truly awesome our God is. (Author Unknown)


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris and Tina Griffin <griffin45 at live.com>
To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:38 am
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history


I am thinking that the primitive body type is small after reading all of the answers. I was interested in the history lesson of this topic. Lots of great information has been passed along on this last thread. I just have one little tidbit to add... True Jacob sheep of the bible would have been brown not spotted. The cattle Jacob kept were ringstraked, the goats were spotted and the sheep were brown. That is per the Authorized (King James) Version of the bible, Genesis 30:39. Reading the entire chapter you will see that Jacob allowed only the best and healthiest animals to breed, which to me is an important part of the Jacob sheep. They have been maintained by the present day shepherds the same way as Jacob would have - Keep the Heartiest and the Healthiest animals with the best markings. 
 
Chris 
www.griffinsark.com 
 
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Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:33 PM 
To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com> 
Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 5 
 

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> Today's Topics: 

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> 1. Re: Intro and horns question (Paul Sisk) 

> 2. Liver Flukes (shmee1 at mail.com) 

> 3. Re: Primitive? (Linda) 

> 4. Re: Liver Flukes (Susan Nielsen) 

> 

> 

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

> 

> Message: 1 

> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:42:43 -0500 

> From: "Paul Sisk" <psisk at hughes.net> 

> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Intro and horns question 

> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com> 

> Message-ID: <IJEKKNHKFHKCJKMGDMKOEENFCIAA.psisk at hughes.net> 

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> I hope you'll join JSBA and register your sheep, if they aren't > registered 

> already. 

> 

> Enjoy your flock! 

> 

> Linda 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> I am mailing my membership in Monday. I intend to register all of the > four 

> horn ewes and the ram, who is also four horned and nearly perfect except > for 

> what he has broken off the tips. I got them from Lucinda Richardson in 

> Camilla. I got eight ewes and one ram. Six of the ewes are four horned and 

> very nice horns. I will still be looking for a young ram in the spring 

> though. 

> 

> Thanks to all who answered 

> Paul 

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> Message: 2 

> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:42:49 -0500 

> From: shmee1 at mail.com 

> Subject: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes 

> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 

> Message-ID: <8CC2E2BEA2455EA-D48-CCB2 at web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> 

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> Yesterday I took my lambs and two mature rams to be slaughtered.? The > inspector informed me that some liver flukes, specifically lancets, were > found in all of them.? This is the first time that I have encountered this > issue, the inspector told me that he has never seen this in my sheep > before having inspected them on three prior occassions.? 

> 

> 

> 

> I have dewormed my whole flock today with Ivomec, it was already in my > plan to do so.? Do I need to treat with something else to address the > liver flukes or will the Ivomec take care of it? 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

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> Message: 3 

> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:09:29 -0500 

> From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net> 

> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive? 

> To: Jacobflock at aol.com 

> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com, 

> nlgrose at yadtel.net 

> Message-ID: <4AF62859.9010808 at windstream.net> 

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" 

> 

> So, there is no "primitive" body type? 

> 

> Jacobflock at aol.com wrote: 

>> The term "primitive" referring to sheep can have a variety of 

>> meanings depending on one's orientation, e.g., a divergence from a 

>> commercial standard or a divergence from a breed standard or a breed 

>> that is relatively unimproved. When "primitive" is used to describe 

>> the Jacob breed the term might be better applied, not to a particular 

>> sheep but to a breed's performance. My frame of referemce for this 

>> term has always been "Guide to the Primitive Breeds of Sheep and their 

>> crosses on Exhibition at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show, 

>> Bristol, 1913 with notes on the Management of Park Sheep in England 

>> and the Possible Advantages of Crossing Them with Improved Breeds" by 

>> John Elwes. (The book is only a little longer than the title) 

>> 

>> He describes his dozen years of breeding some of the original breeds 

>> (primitive breeds) still surviving in England in the early 1900's: Old 

>> Horned Wiltshire, Norfolk, Shetland, Manx, Soay, Hebridian, and 

>> "Spanish" or Piebald Sheep, Fat Rumped sheep, Welsh Sheep, Black-Faced 

>> Highland, Siberian and Orkney. The name Jacob given by Earl 

>> Fitzwilliam to the Spanish Sheep fifty years earlier still hasn't 

>> caught on and won't until fifty years after this work by Elwes.. 

>> 

>> Elwes describes these primitive, unimproved, breeds as having certain 

>> common traits: "Firstly, breed capable of enduring extremes of wet, 

>> cold and heat ... Secondly, they must be able to winter on grass alone 

>> without suffering from lameness.... Thirdly, to produce and suckle 

>> their lambs without the shelter of a ewe pen and without the 

>> assistance of a shepherd... Fourthly, to get a fat lamb in July or 

>> August without any more artificial food than is necessary to prevent 

>> the ewes from scouring ... or if lambs are kept over winter to make a 

>> small carcass of high-class mutton, not exceeding 40-50 pounds dead 

>> weight at 18-20 months old off the grass. Fifthly, to produce as far 

>> as possible a flleece of fine soft wool ..." Elwes will keep his 

>> sheep in park with his deer, observing the sheep's slower pace to 

>> maturity, all requiring little management. 

>> 

>> If one jumps ahead to the founding of the Jacob Sheep Society, the 

>> conservation of the breed takes a course based on "commercialization" 

>> of the breed, voices to conserve the primitive type were not widely 

>> heeded. After a relatively few years the Jacob is standardized and the 

>> typical Jacob is 10-20% heavier. Some of these improved types might 

>> be represented by the Jacobs Ladder line as Todd's purpose was to 

>> import good stock to commercialize the Jacob in the US. (The Importing 

>> Woes Were Worth It by Todd Hescock). Some might argue the primitive 

>> type might be represented by Tony Turner's flock which preceded 

>> Hescock's flock by several years. A comparison of the appearance of 

>> these two types adds some but not compelling evidence of the 

>> difference between primitive and improved. However, primitive, as 

>> first used in reference to Jacobs, really goes to performance and no 

>> evidence, other than Todd's article, has indicated a size 

>> or performance difference. 

>> 

>> Fred Horak 

>> 

>> ----- Original Message ----- 

>> *From:* Laura C Frazier <mailto:farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com> 

>> *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com> 

>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM 

>> *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive? 

>> 

>> I'd like to have some clarification about the 

>> characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've 

>> heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", 

>> including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. 

>> Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? 

>> 

>> Thanks! 

>> Laura 

>> 

>> Laura C Frazier 

>> FarmGirl Arts 

>> (336) 971-3834 

>> Kernersville, NC 

>> http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts 

>> 

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> 

> -- > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com> 

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> Message: 4 

> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:27:30 -0500 (EST) 

> From: Susan Nielsen <snielsen1 at earthlink.net> 

> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes 

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