[Jacob-list] skulls and SUED

[BlackSheep]

Firstly, thanks to everyone who replied.    Betty B has very kindly offered to send me a copy of Ingrid Painter's book so I can see the skull picture for myself.   I will tackle all you wrote in a separate email Fred.  Gary Anderson has told me about Janine Fenton from Colorado, a founding member of JSBA, who had skulls from Jacobs with SUED, apparently with a bone defect - does anyone have a contact email for her please?

Tara, thank you for your detailed reply.  We have been lucky not to have had many severely split eyelids in our 4 horned sheep, in fact never in our pure Jacobs.  We sometimes get a Hebridean ram lamb with a split, occasionally severe.  We do not use or sell a ram with even the mildest degree of splitting.  We check every 4 horned lamb as soon as it is born and any males with SUED are castrated (with a rubber ring) within a few days of birth and are destined for the table.  The only exception to that was one which was so small and puny that we couldn't get the ring on within the legal 7 days (here in Britain), so he stayed entire until he went for slaughter.  None has ever been so severe as to cause distress, but we do take any we are concerned about (one so far !) to the vet - in that instance he felt there was no distress and the Jacob crossbred ewe went on to lamb twins with perfect eyes - before she dropped down dead after shearing, but her eyes were never a problem.  We have been very lucky I think, as we now only breed 4 horned animals.

We have taken lambs to the vet about their eyes - one year 3 lambs were born with a strange fleshy growth under the top lid, not a split.  I probably asked about it on this list at the time. We had used a borrowed ram and he left this problem. The vet removed the growths under local anaesthetic, but was surprised at how much blood came from then - some type of angioma I suppose.  Those lambs went the way of other imperfects in due course and we haven't seen that problem again.  The bill wasn't too bad !  Yes please Tara, I would love to see your wether's skull when he eventually dies.

The Scotland v England 4 horn v 2 horn thing you've got topsy-turvey.  In Scotland we prefer 4 horned Jacobs and there has been a resistance here to the trend towards 2 horned found in England.  In fact when we got our first Jacobs we were told to cull any 2 horned lambs.  We didn't because of course they can be sold in England, which isn't very far away.  We would get maybe one 2 horned lamb each year from between 5 and 8 breeding ewes, having triplets or twins.

The inflated and increasing size of British Jacobs is the reason that we no longer breed them and concentrate on Hebrideans which are a much more primitive native Scottish breed, small and neat. Have a look on www.hebrideansheep.org.uk  The huge size of British Jacobs is also the reason that Gordon and I stay on this list, where we can hear about Jacobs which maintain their primitive size and nature, tap into all your knowledge and look at all your lovely pictures !!

Juliet in Scotland



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Heel low Juliet:

I've seen no reply to your post on the list, so here goes.

In Ingrid Painter's excellent book, "Jacob Sheep in America," page 29 shows a black and white photo of a four horn skull with a notched upper portion in the white skull's right side eye socket.  Caption reads, "Figure 24.  Skull showing deformity in the upper part of the eye socket."   

Here then is documented and published proof that you seek, "bony defect of the orbit in animals know to have had split upper eyelids."

Page 30 states, "These examples are the worst kind and often render the sheep blind in that eye.  These are heritable faults so the sheep should not be kept for breeding."

Here I have my own personal experiences to draw upon.  Yes, the sheep will probably become blind in the eye with type 4 SUED if nothing is done.  Dust would not be sweept out of the eye with a notch in the eyelid and I can only imagine the discomfort of that situation!!  I had a ram lamb, full birth brother to a six horn ewe (sire 2-horn, dam four-horn which I will address shortly) born as a four-horn.  Right from birth, you could see his top eye lids were notched in both eyes.  I felt he was a type four tho Ingrid's type four was more extreme than his.  I left him intact until he was six months old.my vet well warned and prepared.took him in for surgery (sedation is NOT received well by ruminants.it was risking his life as my vet advised me, we could have lost him on the table or from not coming out of sedation).  Long story short, he is a full and active "it" here, providing me with one of the MOST lovely fleeces (he was soft as a pillow to start and sans the testosterone now.still very nice).  No, I did not use him to breed and I often wondered "what if" but was chicken to try.  How many more $300 bills is my husband and I suppose to shrug off as legitimate expenses raising Jacobs.most would have bought mint sauce and prepared the ram lamb accordingly.I have never heard of any other soul, having eye surgery performed on a Jacob to correct SUED.speak up if you have, I'd be delighted to hear of shared insanity.

When this Jacob finally passes, I will make sure and render his skull and send you a photo of his skull pending you do not change addys.  I unfortunately do not have pictures of his type 4 eyelids, didn't have a digital back then.I took pics and when I developed the film, it was all fuzzy!!  Sigh.

I have been told that in Scotland, and Juliet, you can answer me privately or here on the list as to whether I have heard correctly, but in Scotland they took to breeding for two horn Jacobs, in the hopes to avoid split eye deformities all together.  I am also advised that even two horned sheep express split eye deformities.  I think someone on the list mentioned examples seen of two horn sheep that had this???

Now regarding people's preferences not to use two-horns here in North America.thinking 2-horns only throw the same when they want all four horns or more.  This two horn, he was from four-horn  parents and the four horn dam, was also from 4-horn parents as well.with this lineage, there was no issue and a two horn sire produced a four horn ram and a six horn ewe.the splitting of the horn core, obviously was a little extreme in the male's side.  He is considerably less big than intact rams of the same age, but his dam is not huge, so I cannot concur that altering him has made him smaller than he should be as an adult.his horn growth is reduced and matches his body size.  I have heard that horn growth becomes retarded when you alter a male horned sheep.

Hope this helps you.

Doggone,

Tara
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