[Jacob-list] Jacob-list Digest, Vol 73, Issue 14
rshaffer1959 at msn.com
rshaffer1959 at msn.com
Sat Jul 10 20:38:24 EDT 2010
Linda,We have llamas as guards, not all have high guarding instincts. The ones we do use for guard are very good. Last week, one of the dogs got loose in the neighbor's farm and one of the llama's was trilling to let us know there was something wrong and at the same time facing in the direction where the dog had gone and currently was found. We have not had a lose to coyotes either, we know they are around and even have seen them.Cynthia
> From: jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com
> Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 73, Issue 14
> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 19:41:03 -0400
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. llamas as guardians (Linda)
> 2. To tail the truth (Jacobflock at aol.com)
> 3. Re: llamas as guardians (Lorraine Nielsen)
> 4. Re: To tail the truth (Linda)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:52:01 -0400
> From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
> Subject: [Jacob-list] llamas as guardians
> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Message-ID: <4C38F991.3020003 at windstream.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I've been going back and forth about adding a guardian animal to take
> over for Sam (the Pyr) when he gets too old. He's 8 now.
>
> I keep thinking about adding a llama, and have just been offered one (or
> more) gorgeous animals. I have never heard anyone say that llamas are
> really that great as guardian animals. Anyone feel differently?
>
> TIA,
> Linda
> --
> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:52:08 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Jacobflock at aol.com
> Subject: [Jacob-list] To tail the truth
> To: patchworkfibers at windstream.net, fourhornfarm at verizon.net
> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Message-ID: <3c745.dea894c.396a5398 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Phylogenetically the Jacob's medium tail seems a logical compromise between
> the primiitive Mouflon roots (3,000BC) and its modern ancestors
> (1600-1800AD) Ryder 1983, Noble 1913, Elwes 1913. Werner (1988) suggests the Jacoobs
> relatives from Scotland and Western Britain have a similar mouflonoid
> medium tail and horns. Ewart in describing polycerates and mouflon influence
> focused on horn and skeletal features including the caudal vertebrae of
> Soay's with 13 vertebrae.
>
> Genetically, tail length seems to be ahighly heritable trait and the
> "average" of the parents tail length Scobie and OConnell. Tail length
> (vertebrae, skin and fiber) is controlled by a number of genes and each element
> contributes to its "apparent" length. The genes that control the nuimber of
> caudal vertebrae are controlled by a set of genes that regulates cell life,
> growth, structure and death ... call them Hox genes. In a sense, Hox genes
> send messages to make caudal vertebrae at certain places and then says ...
> that's enough of those. Genes also control the length of the caudal
> vertebrae ... at the other end you have 7 cervical vertebrae; so does a giraffe.
> There are genes that control fat vs. thin etc.
>
> A sheep can have 3 - 24 caudal vertebrae and these are rather breed
> specific: Moufloon 11, Finn Landrace 24, Cheviot 24, Orkney and Shetland 13 ....
> based on Xrays of Jacob's tails, they have 16 including the 2 at the
> pelvis. X-ray of the vertebrae is preferred to palpating the vertebrae ... it's
> accurate and the length of the vertebrae can be measured.
>
> As some of the old breeders know, there is a wry end to this tale. A
> congenital defect, wry tail, has been reported several times in Jacobs; dead
> tail (a tail that does not move) is also a defect.
>
> Fred Horak
> St. Jude's Farm
> 1165 E. Lucas Rd.
> Lucas, TX 75002
>
>
> In a message dated 7/9/2010 8:07:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> patchworkfibers at windstream.net writes:
>
> I've seen lambs with a kink in the tail and also don't think it had
> anything to do with being stepped on. Both cases, the kink was inches below the
> normal docking spot. Neither tail was below the hock. Kinks were rather
> minor. I have no idea what caused the kinks - perhaps a jumbling as a fetal
> lamb? I haven't seen that it's a heritable trait,so haven't paid much
> attention to it.
> Linda
>
> Carl Fosbrink wrote:
> Some good points have been made, but I'm surprised no one considered the
> crooked tail. I have seen several lambs born with this and don't think it
> was caused by being stepped on.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
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>
> --
> _Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep_ (http://www.patchworkfibers.com/)
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Lorraine Nielsen" <fourwinds at gotsky.com>
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] llamas as guardians
> To: "Linda" <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Message-ID:
> <4659.72.173.132.69.1278803784.squirrel at admintool.trueband.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> We've had a guardian llama (older female) for four years. We hear the
> coyotes, but have never had them very close. We've seen a bear take a look
> at our llama--her alarm call sounding and her head swaying up and down--
> turn around and take off. She sounds her alarm whenever there is something
> nearby she's not comfortable with, even when the neighbors had some other
> sheep in to graze their property! She's shown that she would attack dogs
> that come too near (had to rescue the neighbor's dog). We don't have the
> challenge of stray packs of dogs, but I know others do. I don't know how
> effective our llama would be if a mountain lion came, which we know are
> around here but haven't seen any traces of yet, but we're quite satisfied
> with our girl. She eats the same as the sheep, which is a savings, and she
> knew what her job was without any training. She bonds with the lambs
> immediately. I should add that we do lock up our ewes in a shed at night.
> Our llama sleeps, faithfully, right by the shed.
>
> Lorraine
>
>
>
> Lorraine Nielsen
> Shear Bliss, Four Winds Farm
> www.fourwindswool.com
> fourwinds at gotsky.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 19:40:53 -0400
> From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] To tail the truth
> To: Jacobflock at aol.com
> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, fourhornfarm at verizon.net
> Message-ID: <4C390505.3080805 at windstream.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Please excuse my erroneous statement regarding heritability of tail
> length. I was referring to the slight variation seen in purebred Jacobs,
> rather than the extreme variation that indicates cross breeding.
>
> Linda
>
> Jacobflock at aol.com wrote:
> > Phylogenetically the Jacob's medium tail seems a logical compromise
> > between the primiitive Mouflon roots (3,000BC) and its modern
> > ancestors (1600-1800AD) Ryder 1983, Noble 1913, Elwes 1913. Werner
> > (1988) suggests the Jacoobs relatives from Scotland and Western
> > Britain have a similar mouflonoid medium tail and horns. Ewart in
> > describing polycerates and mouflon influence focused on horn and
> > skeletal features including the caudal vertebrae of Soay's with 13
> > vertebrae.
> >
> > Genetically, tail length seems to be ahighly heritable trait and the
> > "average" of the parents tail length Scobie and OConnell. Tail length
> > (vertebrae, skin and fiber) is controlled by a number of genes and
> > each element contributes to its "apparent" length. The genes that
> > control the nuimber of caudal vertebrae are controlled by a set of
> > genes that regulates cell life, growth, structure and death ... call
> > them Hox genes. In a sense, Hox genes send messages to make caudal
> > vertebrae at certain places and then says ... that's enough of those.
> > Genes also control the length of the caudal vertebrae ... at the other
> > end you have 7 cervical vertebrae; so does a giraffe. There are genes
> > that control fat vs. thin etc.
> >
> > A sheep can have 3 - 24 caudal vertebrae and these are rather breed
> > specific: Moufloon 11, Finn Landrace 24, Cheviot 24, Orkney and
> > Shetland 13 .... based on Xrays of Jacob's tails, they have 16
> > including the 2 at the pelvis. X-ray of the vertebrae is preferred
> > to palpating the vertebrae ... it's accurate and the length of the
> > vertebrae can be measured.
> >
> > As some of the old breeders know, there is a wry end to this tale. A
> > congenital defect, wry tail, has been reported several times in
> > Jacobs; dead tail (a tail that does not move) is also a defect.
> >
> > Fred Horak
> > St. Jude's Farm
> > 1165 E. Lucas Rd.
> > Lucas, TX 75002
> >
> > In a message dated 7/9/2010 8:07:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > patchworkfibers at windstream.net writes:
> >
> > I've seen lambs with a kink in the tail and also don't think it
> > had anything to do with being stepped on. Both cases, the kink was
> > inches below the normal docking spot. Neither tail was below the
> > hock. Kinks were rather minor. I have no idea what caused the
> > kinks - perhaps a jumbling as a fetal lamb? I haven't seen that
> > it's a heritable trait,so haven't paid much attention to it.
> > Linda
> >
> > Carl Fosbrink wrote:
> >> *Some good points have been made, but I'm surprised no one
> >> considered the crooked tail. I have seen several lambs born with
> >> this and don't think it was caused by being stepped on.*
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm &
> >> Fiberworks
> >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com/>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> >
>
> --
> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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> End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 73, Issue 14
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