[Jacob-list] lilac

[Carl Fosbrink]

If Dune's fleece was brown maybe it is something in the soil. It wasn't brown here. Did it look brown when he arrived there to you or was it brown after he was sheared?


From: Linda 
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 3:34 PM
To: Carl Fosbrink 
Cc: Peg Bostwick ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac


Yes, the chocolate color remains on the face and legs. I read an article by Dr. Sponenberg about differences in the color between leg markings and fleece. I was specifically interested in sheep that have brown fleeces, but have black leg/face markings. According to Dr. S, if the leg markings are black, the sheep is black and the color difference in the fleece has to do with some modifying gene or possibly an environmental factor such as a mineral deficiency - not the actual color gene which is indicated by the color of the leg markings. Other people who have done extensive color research mention the same idea. 
One of the fleece samples I am sending you is from Dune. It is definitely brown.
Linda. 

On 4/1/2012 3:06 PM, Carl Fosbrink wrote: 
  All information helps to understand where the colors might have come from. I have Hardy Hill and an early ram and ewe I had were from Sue Thaxton by way of Edd Lanham and I also have Maverick and a ram from the Twigg flock and had a ram Sweetgrass Reason that I got from Luke and several ewes came from Mary Spahr and I have not had that color occur in my lambs so I am wondering why I haven't. This chocolate color is pretty rare. When the fleece fades to gray does the chocolate color remain on the face and legs?


  From: Peg Bostwick 
  Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 12:45 PM
  To: 'Carl Fosbrink' ; 'Linda' 
  Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Subject: RE: [Jacob-list] lilac


  Hi, Carl.   I had to think about it. but most of the lilacs that I had in the past went back one way or another to Sue Thaxton's sheep, maybe some of Mary Spahr's, and Luke Hardy's.  But one of my Fieldwood ewes seemed to be lilac factored as well.

   

  Vickie Alber had a BEAUTIFUL lilac ram - 2 horned - named Alber's Mathias.    I had two of his son's, Alber's Norman and Alber's Chaucer.   Both were black and white but had lilac lambs.   Mathias' sire was Raspberryshire Tutankamen (sp?) - his owner had just a few Jacobs but nice ones.   Can't recall where she got her stock, but I'm thinking the same lines - Luke, Vickie Alber (who had some from Sue Thaxton, some from Francis Weaver Grill, some from a breeder in Ontario.).   Early on, I had a ram named Hadrack from Neil Kentner that was sired by a Sue Thaxton ram, and from a Prairie Marie ewe.  Hadrack was also lilac factored.     

   

  Don't know if all that helps. Vickie's "Mathias" was brownish as I recall.  Put PERFECT fleeces on all of his lambs.    Peg

   

  Peg Bostwick

  peg at sweetgrass-jacobs.com

  517-626-6981

   

  From: Carl Fosbrink [mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com] 
  Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 10:50 AM
  To: Peg Bostwick; 'Linda'
  Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

   

  Thanks Peg. What is the pedigree on the Jacobs you have or have had that have this color of fleece? It makes me wonder why I have never had this occur in any of the lambs I have had born here. The one ewe I got from Carl Fredericks was a darker blue/gray as a lamb than the lilacs I have had before and the ones I got from Shannon. The ones I got from Shannon have pedigrees that go back to the Maverick lines as do a lot of my flock, but of course they have other lines in their pedigrees also. These ewes and my lilacs are all a lighter blue/gray.

   

  From: Peg Bostwick 

  Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 9:10 PM

  To: 'Linda' ; 'Carl Fosbrink' 

  Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 

  Subject: RE: [Jacob-list] lilac

   

  Carl, Linda, et al..  I've had some lilacs in the past that I would call more light brown (taupe?) than gray as lambs, but my experience has been like Linda's - they tend to gray and "fade" when fairly young.   I have sort of thought the ideal lilac would be one that really held its color.

   

  Carl - somewhere I might have some old lilac roving - mostly from lambs - that is clearly a light brown (to my eye).  If I can find it I'll send you and Linda both some.   On the other hand, I have not seen a lilac Jacob fleece that is as true, darker brown as some of the morrit (spelling?) fleeces that are for sale with other breeding. (more a corriedale type).  

   

  Peg 

   

  Peg Bostwick

  peg at sweetgrass-jacobs.com

  517-626-6981

   

  From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com [mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of Linda
  Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 5:50 PM
  To: Carl Fosbrink
  Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

   

  Carl,
  I'm sending you some fleece samples. I find that I get good chocolate fleece and yarn from the first shearing. After that, the color tends to fade and gray - different rates of graying for different sheep. I see the same thing in some blacks.  If the first shearing is chocolate and successive shearings are more gray, I tend to think that early graying (or some other modifier or maybe diet?) plays a part in the color change. Legs and face are hair, not wool. Perhaps that has something to do with the differences in color we see between peripheral markings and fleece. I don't know. It's an interesting subject.

  Linda  .

  On 3/31/2012 3:25 PM, Carl Fosbrink wrote: 

  I agree with Linda on several points and we have discussed lilacs before. I have been experimenting with lilac to lilac and lilac to b&w matings for a few years now. I have always had some lilacs in my flock from the very beginning. All of my lilac to lilac matings have produced lilac lambs. What I refer to as lilac is the blue/gray color although some are darker and some lighter shades of that color. There seems to be differences of opinion as to what is lilac. I have been told there are chocolate lilacs and Linda has been told that what is considered chocolate are the ones that breed true. My blue/gray lilacs breed true. To me what would be considered a chocolate lilac would be a Jacob that has chocolate color on face and legs and a fleece that is brown all the way to the skin. I will not say there is no such color, but that I have never seen one in person. Maybe we are just dealing with a difference in thinking as to what is lilac color. I do know that what I call lilac is what some people call chocolate lilac. I have seen a lot of lilac Jacobs and they are all what I would call the blue/gray lilac color. I have bred several lilacs over the years and have gotten a lilac ewe from Carl Fredericks from WI. and lilac ewes from Shannon Phifer from OR.to get unrelated lilacs for my experiment and those ewes were the same blue/gray color that have been born here and that I have seen elsewhere and have bred true  when mated to my lilacs. I feel strongly that if there is a true chocolate lilac that it should be registered as a chocolate instead of a lilac. If there is anyone who has a true chocolate lilac out there please send me photos of face and legs and fleece. I would love to see it. If we are just experiencing a difference in how we interpret the same color that is a lot easier to deal with. 

   

  From: Linda 

  Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 8:56 PM

  To: Betty Berlenbach 

  Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 

  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

   

  That's the opposite of what I see in my lilac lambs. The body color at birth looks black, but the facial color is what tells me the lamb is lilac. Leg markings often appear black, but eventually start to show browning. Dr. Sponenberg wrote an article about various modifying genes that affect the color, but are not color genes - early graying, roaning, tolerance to sun, etc. I wonder if some of these modifying genes might account for the difference between chocolate and blue lilacs.I would be very interested to hear more about Dr. S's report at the AGM. 

  Sheep that are not a traditional black have been registered as lilac. If we accept that lilac is recessive, lilacs bred together should always produce lilacs. This has not happened with some sheep registered as lilac. Either our definition of lilac or our understanding of the genetics of lilacs is flawed.

  Linda



  On 3/30/2012 6:46 AM, Betty Berlenbach wrote: 

  I don't have a lot of experience with lilac, but I've had a question asked of me.  I know that occasionally, I will have a lamb that looks black, but when it dries off, in the light, it is very dark grey, with that telltale "halo" of lighter color around the eyes and blue eyes. Still, it is not the blue=lilac/light grey, blue eyed color from birth that I've seen.  In the dark grey type, the head and leg markings seem to remain black, though the body color is very dark grey. AND, I've heard people talk about chocolate brown lilac.  So, is "lilac" another word for "not-black" or what?  The guide book/breed standard, unless I"ve missed it, doesn't talk about these variations.  I recall Phil Sponenberg, way long ago at a N.J. AGM bring up the thought that there were two jacob blacks, one dominant to the other, both dominant over regular ol' white sheep white.  No idea whether that was something others observed and what difference it made or why he thought there were two.  So, Fred and others, thoughts?





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