[Jacob-list] lilac

[Carl Fosbrink]

I agree with Linda on several points and we have discussed lilacs before. I have been experimenting with lilac to lilac and lilac to b&w matings for a few years now. I have always had some lilacs in my flock from the very beginning. All of my lilac to lilac matings have produced lilac lambs. What I refer to as lilac is the blue/gray color although some are darker and some lighter shades of that color. There seems to be differences of opinion as to what is lilac. I have been told there are chocolate lilacs and Linda has been told that what is considered chocolate are the ones that breed true. My blue/gray lilacs breed true. To me what would be considered a chocolate lilac would be a Jacob that has chocolate color on face and legs and a fleece that is brown all the way to the skin. I will not say there is no such color, but that I have never seen one in person. Maybe we are just dealing with a difference in thinking as to what is lilac color. I do know that what I call lilac is what some people call chocolate lilac. I have seen a lot of lilac Jacobs and they are all what I would call the blue/gray lilac color. I have bred several lilacs over the years and have gotten a lilac ewe from Carl Fredericks from WI. and lilac ewes from Shannon Phifer from OR.to get unrelated lilacs for my experiment and those ewes were the same blue/gray color that have been born here and that I have seen elsewhere and have bred true  when mated to my lilacs. I feel strongly that if there is a true chocolate lilac that it should be registered as a chocolate instead of a lilac. If there is anyone who has a true chocolate lilac out there please send me photos of face and legs and fleece. I would love to see it. If we are just experiencing a difference in how we interpret the same color that is a lot easier to deal with. 


From: Linda 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 8:56 PM
To: Betty Berlenbach 
Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac


That's the opposite of what I see in my lilac lambs. The body color at birth looks black, but the facial color is what tells me the lamb is lilac. Leg markings often appear black, but eventually start to show browning. Dr. Sponenberg wrote an article about various modifying genes that affect the color, but are not color genes - early graying, roaning, tolerance to sun, etc. I wonder if some of these modifying genes might account for the difference between chocolate and blue lilacs.I would be very interested to hear more about Dr. S's report at the AGM. 

Sheep that are not a traditional black have been registered as lilac. If we accept that lilac is recessive, lilacs bred together should always produce lilacs. This has not happened with some sheep registered as lilac. Either our definition of lilac or our understanding of the genetics of lilacs is flawed.

Linda



On 3/30/2012 6:46 AM, Betty Berlenbach wrote: 
  I don't have a lot of experience with lilac, but I've had a question asked of me.  I know that occasionally, I will have a lamb that looks black, but when it dries off, in the light, it is very dark grey, with that telltale "halo" of lighter color around the eyes and blue eyes. Still, it is not the blue=lilac/light grey, blue eyed color from birth that I've seen.  In the dark grey type, the head and leg markings seem to remain black, though the body color is very dark grey. AND, I've heard people talk about chocolate brown lilac.  So, is "lilac" another word for "not-black" or what?  The guide book/breed standard, unless I"ve missed it, doesn't talk about these variations.  I recall Phil Sponenberg, way long ago at a N.J. AGM bring up the thought that there were two jacob blacks, one dominant to the other, both dominant over regular ol' white sheep white.  No idea whether that was something others observed and what difference it made or why he thought there were two.  So, Fred and others, thoughts?

   

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