[Jacob-list] lilac

[Linda]

Carl,
I'm sending you some fleece samples. I find that I get good chocolate 
fleece and yarn from the first shearing. After that, the color tends to 
fade and gray - different rates of graying for different sheep. I see 
the same thing in some blacks.  If the first shearing is chocolate and 
successive shearings are more gray, I tend to think that early graying 
(or some other modifier or maybe diet?) plays a part in the color 
change. Legs and face are hair, not wool. Perhaps that has something to 
do with the differences in color we see between peripheral markings and 
fleece. I don't know. It's an interesting subject.

Linda  .

On 3/31/2012 3:25 PM, Carl Fosbrink wrote:

> I agree with Linda on several points and we have discussed lilacs 

> before. I have been experimenting with lilac to lilac and lilac to b&w 

> matings for a few years now. I have always had some lilacs in my flock 

> from the very beginning. All of my lilac to lilac matings have 

> produced lilac lambs. What I refer to as lilac is the blue/gray color 

> although some are darker and some lighter shades of that color. There 

> seems to be differences of opinion as to what is lilac. I have been 

> told there are chocolate lilacs and Linda has been told that what is 

> considered chocolate are the ones that breed true. My blue/gray lilacs 

> breed true. To me what would be considered a chocolate lilac would be 

> a Jacob that has chocolate color on face and legs and a fleece that is 

> brown all the way to the skin. I will not say there is no such color, 

> but that I have never seen one in person. Maybe we are just dealing 

> with a difference in thinking as to what is lilac color. I do know 

> that what I call lilac is what some people call chocolate lilac. I 

> have seen a lot of lilac Jacobs and they are all what I would call the 

> blue/gray lilac color. I have bred several lilacs over the years and 

> have gotten a lilac ewe from Carl Fredericks from WI. and lilac ewes 

> from Shannon Phifer from OR.to get unrelated lilacs for my 

> experiment and those ewes were the same blue/gray color that have been 

> born here and that I have seen elsewhere and have bred true  when 

> mated to my lilacs. I feel strongly that if there is a true chocolate 

> lilac that it should be registered as a chocolate instead of a lilac. 

> If there is anyone who has a true chocolate lilac out there please 

> send me photos of face and legs and fleece. I would love to see it. If 

> we are just experiencing a difference in how we interpret the same 

> color that is a lot easier to deal with.

>

> *From:* Linda <mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

> *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2012 8:56 PM

> *To:* Betty Berlenbach <mailto:lambfarm at tds.net>

> *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

> *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] lilac

>

> That's the opposite of what I see in my lilac lambs. The body color at 

> birth looks black, but the facial color is what tells me the lamb is 

> lilac. Leg markings often appear black, but eventually start to show 

> browning. Dr. Sponenberg wrote an article about various modifying 

> genes that affect the color, but are not color genes - early graying, 

> roaning, tolerance to sun, etc. I wonder if some of these modifying 

> genes might account for the difference between chocolate and blue 

> lilacs.I would be very interested to hear more about Dr. S's report at 

> the AGM.

>

> Sheep that are not a traditional black have been registered as lilac. 

> If we accept that lilac is recessive, lilacs bred together should 

> always produce lilacs. This has not happened with some sheep 

> registered as lilac. Either our definition of lilac or our 

> understanding of the genetics of lilacs is flawed.

>

> Linda

>

>

>

> On 3/30/2012 6:46 AM, Betty Berlenbach wrote:

>> I don't have a lot of experience with lilac, but I've had a question 

>> asked of me.  I know that occasionally, I will have a lamb that looks 

>> black, but when it dries off, in the light, it is very dark grey, 

>> with that telltale "halo" of lighter color around the eyes and blue 

>> eyes. Still, it is not the blue=lilac/light grey, blue eyed color 

>> from birth that I've seen.  In the dark grey type, the head and leg 

>> markings seem to remain black, though the body color is very dark 

>> grey. AND, I've heard people talk about chocolate brown lilac.  So, 

>> is "lilac" another word for "not-black" or what?  The guide 

>> book/breed standard, unless I"ve missed it, doesn't talk about these 

>> variations.  I recall Phil Sponenberg, way long ago at a N.J. AGM 

>> bring up the thought that there were two jacob blacks, one dominant 

>> to the other, both dominant over regular ol' white sheep white.  No 

>> idea whether that was something others observed and what difference 

>> it made or why he thought there were two.  So, Fred and others, thoughts?

>>

>>

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> -- 

> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>

>

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