[Jacob-list] lilac
Jacobflock at aol.com
Jacobflock at aol.com
Tue May 22 15:57:24 EDT 2012
Dear listers - The "lilac" color came up again several times from a Jacob
breeder who stopped in for a visit this past weekend. The breeder was
looking for some guidance in identifying a lilac, an explanation of the
phenotype and why the phenotype among 'lilac' owners had such diversity, lacked
color precision and was largely opinion based on personal flock observations.
I perhaps added to the confusion by adding that the "lilac" color is only
recognized as a Jacob in North America; it is not recognized as such in
Great Britain and the Jacob Sheep Society, the original 'breed' standard
bearer. If the Jacob is a British breed should its genotype reflect the
dominant black, recessive white roots. The early flock literature from Britain
does not contain references to a lilac color and yet in the 1980s the JSS
opines it is to be avoided. Is the lilac a dilution, a mutation, something
more or less than a simple recessive?
The endogenous retrovirus genetic marker for the Jacob breed, enJSRV-18, is
absent in the Mediterraenean Muflon which is the origin of other colored
British breeds but supports an origin to breeds in Africa and Southwest Asia
where breeds are predominantly black and white. The Jaagseitke (pneumonia
type) retrovirus (enJSRV) is polymorphically (there are about 15 forms of
it) inserted on various chromosomes (Jacob is c11), singly or in
combination, and can be used to trace breed relationships. It is based on this
unique marker that we know that the Jacob is not a "Viking" breed nor is it
related other British primitive and more modern breeds
(Kilda,Hebridean,Icelandic,Blackface,etc). But this Jacob breed marker has not been found in
"lilacs"; only in black and whites.
Several older listers may remember the US breeds genetic distance tests
done by Harvey Blackburn and his group about a decade ago; about the same
time the Dept of Ag study on Jacob breed genetic diversity was done. Here
again the genetic distance study showed the "Jacob" is an outlier breed and is
unrelated to other US 'look alike' breeds. Harvey's study did not look at
black and white vs lilac.
Should the question be (1) asked (2) researched and (3) answered? Does
anyone have any interest and the genetic resources to compare the lilac with
the black and white? what are corollary issues? I think Ingrid Painter and
Jean Rosecrans asked this question 20 years ago. I asked this question on
the list about five years ago and there was little or no interest except
for Carl who was looking for source flocks. Maybe the JSBA would find a
definitive answer for writing a 'lilac' standard for its members; else does a
'lilac' color standard revert to the common denominator - something other
than black, e.g., blue, purple, brown, tan, mousy, grey, etc,
Regards - Fred Horak
In a message dated 5/4/2012 7:57:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
fourhornfarm at frontier.com writes:
I agree Lasell's ewe's color is totally different colors than black or
lilac. It is something I have never seen in any of several lilacs I have had
born here over the years. I think it has to be something in the genes these
sheep have that is not present in my sheeps' genes or is so recessive that
it hasn't shown up.
From: _Linda_ (mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net)
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 7:25 PM
To: _spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com_ (mailto:spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com)
Cc: _Carl Fosbrink_ (mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com) ;
_jacob-list at jacobsheep.com_ (mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com)
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac
My different shaded ewe is a great great granddaughter of PMA Clinton. But
my RubyBelle was a granddaughter of Clinton and I've had alot of lilacs
descended from her that were uniform in color.
I've also seen blacks with a difference in shading, so don't think it's
something that is specific to lilacs.
Lasell's ewe is something else. The colors certainly do look like
completely different colors rather than variations of the same color.
Linda
On 5/3/2012 12:39 PM, _spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com_
(mailto:spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com) wrote:
Well, Harley and Ivory are daughter/mother. The only connection for
B'Elana and Ivory/Harley is P.M.A. Clinton, who appears 8 generations back on
B'Elana's twice, and once 9 generations back a third time. In Ivory's he shows
up 6 generations back (7 for Harley). Not very likely related to the
color, but I guess it is possible... I suppose there could be others farther
back, but that is the only one that stuck out to me.
Harley hasn't been registered yet (haven't had the time or cash to do it),
that's why you can't find her. Her sire is a ram out of Fibre Folds
Chortle and Unzicker Ashton. Chortle carries lilac, but I don't think that has
anything to do with this, as Ivory (Harley's mother) throws this calico
pattern no matter what ram she is bred to.
Marie
Spot Hollow Farm
--- _fourhornfarm at frontier.com_ (mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com) wrote:
From: "Carl Fosbrink" _<fourhornfarm at frontier.com>_
(mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com)
To: _<spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com>_ (mailto:spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com) ,
"Shannon Phifer" _<kenleighacres at yahoo.com>_
(mailto:kenleighacres at yahoo.com)
Cc: _<patchworkfibers at windstream.net>_
(mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net) , _<justinedixon at aol.com>_ (mailto:justinedixon at aol.com) ,
_<jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>_ (mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com)
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac
Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 12:01:55 -0400
Do Harley, B'Elana and Ivory have any common ancestors?
From: _spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com_ (mailto:spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com)
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:56 PM
To: _Shannon Phifer_ (mailto:kenleighacres at yahoo.com)
Cc: _patchworkfibers at windstream.net_
(mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net) ; _justinedixon at aol.com_ (mailto:justinedixon at aol.com) ;
_jacob-list at jacobsheep.com_ (mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com) ;
_fourhornfarm at frontier.com_ (mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com)
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac
I have had almost one lamb every lambing that has been black, with at
least one lilac patch on it. I have two adult ewes in my flock with this (Spot
Hollow Harley and Spot Hollow B'Elana), and one adult ewe who has thrown at
least one lamb a year with this spotting pattern (Painted Rock Ivory), but
does not show it herself.
Ivory's ewe lamb this year is very light, but she has two lilac spots that
seem to "over lap" her black - one on her neck and one on her front leg.
Harley is Ivory's lamb from several years ago and she has a fairly good
sized lilac spot on her side. B'Elana has one on the back of her neck, she was
the first I had seen with this. Most of the time they are small spots,
about the size of a quarter. I don't think this means they carry lilac, but I
haven't gotten my hands on a good lilac ram to put to them to see, but they
haven't thrown any lilacs when bred to carriers.
Maybe it is something like the gene for calico in cats? Come to think of
it, I have never seen it in rams ; )
Marie
Spot Hollow Farm
--- _kenleighacres at yahoo.com_ (mailto:kenleighacres at yahoo.com) wrote:
From: Shannon Phifer _<kenleighacres at yahoo.com>_
(mailto:kenleighacres at yahoo.com)
To: Linda _<patchworkfibers at windstream.net>_
(mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net) , _"justinedixon at aol.com"_ (mailto:justinedixon at aol.com)
_<justinedixon at aol.com>_ (mailto:justinedixon at aol.com)
Cc: _"jacob-list at jacobsheep.com"_ (mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com)
_<jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>_ (mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com) ,
_"fourhornfarm at frontier.com"_ (mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com)
_<fourhornfarm at frontier.com>_ (mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com)
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac
Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 17:00:29 -0700 (PDT)
I believe Karen Lobb, had a black ewe with tawny spot(s) much like
Lasell's, a few years ago. I can't remember his exact response, but Gary Anderson
responded saying that it had something to do with the expression of color
in those certain areas of the body. Not really color related, just color
placement. Hopefully Gary reads this and can explain it again.
I have a couple lilac ewes much like what Linda described - they have
darker 'lilac' spots within their spots.
Shannon Phifer
Kenleigh Acres Farm
_www.kenleigh-acres.com_ (http://www.kenleigh-acres.com/)
From: Linda _<patchworkfibers at windstream.net>_
(mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net)
To: _justinedixon at aol.com_ (mailto:justinedixon at aol.com)
Cc: _jacob-list at jacobsheep.com_ (mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com) ;
_fourhornfarm at frontier.com_ (mailto:fourhornfarm at frontier.com)
Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac
I haven't seen one with actual black and lilac spots on the same animal,
but I do have a lilac with a few darker chocolate spots among the lighter
spots. She's a two year old and the difference may have been more obvious at
her first shearing. She's one I sold as a lamb and bought back, so I missed
the first shearing. As a lamb, her color was even. On Quinn, it seems to
be a case of uneven fading, rather than different colors, as the spots are
varying shades of brown.
Lasell had a really interesting one with very distinct color differences
that were apparent at birth. It should be in the archives or maybe Lasell
will share it again.
I don't have any idea what causes the uneven random color. I will be
interested in hearing what others have to say about it.
There is a type of spotting with different colors that can happen when you
have a spotted agouti/shaded patterned animal. In that case, the
dark/light areas correspond to the agouti placements in a solid animals. You
wouldn't see this in Jacobs, but I've seen it in crossbreds and it's common in
spotted rabbits. Obviously not what you are seeing in your lamb.
Linda
On 5/1/2012 9:19 PM, _justinedixon at aol.com_ (mailto:justinedixon at aol.com)
wrote:
Carl, Linda, Peg et al.
I was very interested reading your comments on lilacs and colour
variation. I have a lilac yearling that seems to have black spots also. See
attached photo, is this common?
Thanks
Stuart
_www.byeburnfarm.com_ (http://www.byeburnfarm.com/)
_Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep_ (http://www.patchworkfibers.com/)
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