[Jacob-list] lilac

Jennifer gotothewhip at aol.com
Thu May 24 22:57:33 EDT 2012


Im noticing a difference in the amount of washing or graying out of the dark (lilac or black) color now that Iam adding copper (YES COPPER) to the diet of my sheep. While they are low, sheep do have copper requirements, but I have a high molybdenum in the soil, and high iron in the water, both tie up available copper....I was getting washing out of colors and brillo pad like wool on some... that is going away. I am feeding a loose mineral with 250ppm..

Jennifer Tucker
Moose Mtn Ranch
Bennett, CO


-----Original Message-----
From: Gloria Steiger <olgasteig at gmail.com>
To: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
Cc: jacob-list <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>; fourhornfarm <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>; Jacobflock <Jacobflock at aol.com>
Sent: Thu, May 24, 2012 5:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac


Hello,
It might be useful to gather samples of lilac fleece, labelled with age, location, etc and post them side by side so the differences are more identifiable. I would love to see a comparison.
~gloria
(who does not own a lilac sheep but might be bringing one of Lasell's home)




On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net> wrote:


Hello Fred,

I would love to see the question asked, researched, and answered and would happily participate in any study.

A few questions - is color DNA testing available for sheep? I haven't looked into it, but thought it was mentioned on the sheep color genetics list that it wasn't. I haven't kept up, so things may have changed or I might not be remembering it correctly. If it is available, that would certainly give us a better starting point than personal flock observations. The varying "lilac" colors can be difficult to photograph accurately. A slight change in color balance can change a black to a blue to a chocolate. This does complicate sharing our flock observations.

When we look at our lilacs, we are seeing more than the color genetics. We are also seeing modifying factors such as sun bleaching, early graying, reactions to mineral intakes, etc, etc. The fleece reflects all these factors on top of the color.

This is an interesting topic and I hope it will be continued.

Linda

.



On 5/22/2012 3:57 PM, Jacobflock at aol.com wrote:

Dear listers - The "lilac" color came up again several times from a Jacob breeder who stopped in for a visit this past weekend. The breeder was looking for some guidance in identifying a lilac, an explanation of the phenotype and why the phenotype among 'lilac' owners had such diversity, lacked color precision and was largely opinion based on personal flock observations.



I perhaps added to the confusion by adding that the "lilac" color is only recognized as a Jacob in North America; it is not recognized as such in Great Britain and the Jacob Sheep Society, the original 'breed' standard bearer. If the Jacob is a British breed should its genotype reflect the dominant black, recessive white roots. The early flock literature from Britain does not contain references to a lilac color and yet in the 1980s the JSS opines it is to be avoided. Is the lilac a dilution, a mutation, something more or less than a simple recessive?



The endogenous retrovirus genetic marker for the Jacob breed, enJSRV-18, is absent in the Mediterraenean Muflon which is the origin of other colored British breeds but supports an origin to breeds in Africa and Southwest Asia where breeds are predominantly black and white. The Jaagseitke (pneumonia type) retrovirus (enJSRV) is polymorphically (there are about 15 forms of it) inserted on various chromosomes (Jacob is c11), singly or in combination, and can be used to trace breed relationships. It is based on this unique marker that we know that the Jacob is not a "Viking" breed nor is it related other British primitive and more modern breeds (Kilda,Hebridean,Icelandic,Blackface,etc). But this Jacob breed marker has not been found in "lilacs"; only in black and whites.



Several older listers may remember the US breeds genetic distance tests done by Harvey Blackburn and his group about a decade ago; about the same time the Dept of Ag study on Jacob breed genetic diversity was done. Here again the genetic distance study showed the "Jacob" is an outlier breed and is unrelated to other US 'look alike' breeds. Harvey's study did not look at black and white vs lilac.



Should the question be (1) asked (2) researched and (3) answered? Does anyone have any interest and the genetic resources to compare the lilac with the black and white? what are corollary issues? I think Ingrid Painter and Jean Rosecrans asked this question 20 years ago. I asked this question on the list about five years ago and there was little or no interest except for Carl who was looking for source flocks. Maybe the JSBA would find a definitive answer for writing a 'lilac' standard for its members; else does a 'lilac' color standard revert to the common denominator - something other than black, e.g., blue, purple, brown, tan, mousy, grey, etc,



Regards - Fred Horak














In a message dated 5/4/2012 7:57:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, fourhornfarm at frontier.com writes:


I agree Lasell's ewe's color is totally different colors than black or lilac. It is something I have never seen in any of several lilacs I have had born here over the years. I think it has to be something in the genes these sheep have that is not present in my sheeps' genes or is so recessive that it hasn't shown up.






From: Linda

Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 7:25 PM

To: spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com

Cc: Carl Fosbrink ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac





My different shaded ewe is a great great granddaughter of PMA Clinton. But my RubyBelle was a granddaughter of Clinton and I've had alot of lilacs descended from her that were uniform in color.
I've also seen blacks with a difference in shading, so don't think it's something that is specific to lilacs.
Lasell's ewe is something else. The colors certainly do look like completely different colors rather than variations of the same color.
Linda

On 5/3/2012 12:39 PM, spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com wrote:

Well, Harley and Ivory are daughter/mother. The only connection for B'Elana and Ivory/Harley is P.M.A. Clinton, who appears 8 generations back on B'Elana's twice, and once 9 generations back a third time. In Ivory's he shows up 6 generations back (7 for Harley). Not very likely related to the color, but I guess it is possible... I suppose there could be others farther back, but that is the only one that stuck out to me.
Harley hasn't been registered yet (haven't had the time or cash to do it), that's why you can't find her. Her sire is a ram out of Fibre Folds Chortle and Unzicker Ashton. Chortle carries lilac, but I don't think that has anything to do with this, as Ivory (Harley's mother) throws this calico pattern no matter what ram she is bred to.




Marie

Spot Hollow Farm




--- fourhornfarm at frontier.com wrote:

From: "Carl Fosbrink" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>
To: <spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com>, "Shannon Phifer" <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>
Cc: <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>, <justinedixon at aol.com>, <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac
Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 12:01:55 -0400


Do Harley, B'Elana and Ivory have any common ancestors?






From: spotted_sheep at bluefrog.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 8:56 PM

To: Shannon Phifer

Cc: patchworkfibers at windstream.net ; justinedixon at aol.com ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; fourhornfarm at frontier.com

Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac






I have had almost one lamb every lambing that has been black, with at least one lilac patch on it. I have two adult ewes in my flock with this (Spot Hollow Harley and Spot Hollow B'Elana), and one adult ewe who has thrown at least one lamb a year with this spotting pattern (Painted Rock Ivory), but does not show it herself.
Ivory's ewe lamb this year is very light, but she has two lilac spots that seem to "over lap" her black - one on her neck and one on her front leg. Harley is Ivory's lamb from several years ago and she has a fairly good sized lilac spot on her side. B'Elana has one on the back of her neck, she was the first I had seen with this. Most of the time they are small spots, about the size of a quarter. I don't think this means they carry lilac, but I haven't gotten my hands on a good lilac ram to put to them to see, but they haven't thrown any lilacs when bred to carriers.

Maybe it is something like the gene for calico in cats? Come to think of it, I have never seen it in rams ; )




Marie

Spot Hollow Farm



--- kenleighacres at yahoo.com wrote:

From: Shannon Phifer <kenleighacres at yahoo.com>
To: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>, "justinedixon at aol.com" <justinedixon at aol.com>
Cc: "jacob-list at jacobsheep.com" <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>, "fourhornfarm at frontier.com" <fourhornfarm at frontier.com>
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac
Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 17:00:29 -0700 (PDT)



I believe Karen Lobb, had a black ewe with tawny spot(s) much like Lasell's, a few years ago. I can't remember his exact response, but Gary Anderson responded saying that it had something to do with the expression of color in those certain areas of the body. Not really color related, just color placement. Hopefully Gary reads this and can explain it again.

I have a couple lilac ewes much like what Linda described - they have darker 'lilac' spots within their spots.



Shannon Phifer
Kenleigh Acres Farm

www.kenleigh-acres.com










From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
To: justinedixon at aol.com
Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com; fourhornfarm at frontier.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] lilac




I haven't seen one with actual black and lilac spots on the same animal, but I do have a lilac with a few darker chocolate spots among the lighter spots. She's a two year old and the difference may have been more obvious at her first shearing. She's one I sold as a lamb and bought back, so I missed the first shearing. As a lamb, her color was even. On Quinn, it seems to be a case of uneven fading, rather than different colors, as the spots are varying shades of brown.
Lasell had a really interesting one with very distinct color differences that were apparent at birth. It should be in the archives or maybe Lasell will share it again.
I don't have any idea what causes the uneven random color. I will be interested in hearing what others have to say about it.
There is a type of spotting with different colors that can happen when you have a spotted agouti/shaded patterned animal. In that case, the dark/light areas correspond to the agouti placements in a solid animals. You wouldn't see this in Jacobs, but I've seen it in crossbreds and it's common in spotted rabbits. Obviously not what you are seeing in your lamb.

Linda

On 5/1/2012 9:19 PM, justinedixon at aol.com wrote:
Carl, Linda, Peg et al.



I was very interested reading your comments on lilacs and colour variation. I have a lilac yearling that seems to have black spots also. See attached photo, is this common?




Thanks

Stuart

www.byeburnfarm.com

Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep




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