[Retros] Request for definition of "retro"

[per olin]

Hi Andrew,

As for your message below, you are addressing an important issue. I recall that Dittman has an extensive analysis of what retros are.  Was also there, or somewhere else, metioned the similarity between proofgames and helpmates?  I welcome all initiatives to make clear definitions, and Dittmann has that for retros. Some magazines classify proofgames as fairy chess (at least in their annual competitions) so there is still much to do in this area. Suggestion for definition of retros:   as defined by Dittmann in his book Der Blick zuruck ! 

Yes, a lousy answer to your question, but we don't have to invent the wheel twice. Suggest that as the retro corner composers now compete with having shortest possible proofgames, we could have a similar verbal one:  who defines retros in shortest possible way in English?

Best regards

Per Olin  


andrew buchanan kirjoitti 15.01.2007 kello 08:18:

> Hi Per,

> 

> Thanks for your review of Dittman's "Der Blick Zuruck".

> 

> I don't (yet) have a copy of his book, but I am very interested to

>  learn his

> definition of what constitutes a retro. I have tried to come up with a

> watertight specification, but without success.

> 

> For example, if you say that A->B proof games are retros (and I

>  agree they

> feel like they are), then you could argue that helpmates are retros. For

> surely a h# is an A->B retro except that B is not just a single

>  position,

> but the *set* of reachable positions which are checkmate? :-)

> 

> This is not quite frivolous. Long helpmates are often best solved by a

> retro-analytic strategy (as discussed by Wilts & Frolkin in their book

> "Shortest Proof Games").

> 

> Article 17 of the Codex (much discussed in this mailing list

>  recently) says:

> "Unless expressly stipulated, the 50 moves-rule does not apply to the

> solution of chess compositions except for retro-problems."

> 

> So to know whether 50M is applying, we need to know whether the

>  animal we

> are looking at is indeed a retro-problem. :-)

> 

> Hope you (or the august W.Dittman himself) can help here.

> 

> Sincerely,

> Andrew Buchanan.

> 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On

>  Behalf Of

> per olin

> Sent: 21 December 2006 22:33

> To: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List

> Subject: [Retros] Some retro active thoughts

> 

> 

> Some retro active thoughts

> 

> 

> Proofgames - A to B chess 

> 

> In his book Der Blick zuruck W. Dittmann gives a large overview of

>  the retro

> problem genre and its history. Discussed is, among many other things,

> whether proofgames are to be considered as retros or not. I have

>  myself had

> some doubts, but now we do not have to worry about this anymore. 

>  Dittmann

> gives in his thorough way the answer:  yes they are.

> 

> One special type of proofgames are the ones not starting with the

>  initial

> position (IP), but with a composed position A.  These are in the

>  book called

> A to B chess (A nach B Schach).  One very special type of A to B is the

> situation, where A = B meaning that the same position has to be

>  reached with

> the other party to move (proofgame in an uneven number of

>  halfmoves).  The

> foundation for this was outlined by Ceriani in 1949;  later also

>  elaborated

> by Bartel.  Dittmann writes that the next steps in A to B Chess were

>  taken

> over half a century later in Andernach 2001, which is not correct. The

> example when the 2001 tournament was announced was a proofgame with

>  double

> Allumwandlung (AUW). This double AUW is also the theme of my pioneer

>  problem

> in A to B chess published in Suomen Tehtavaniekat 1/1993.

> 

> Also in the book are mentioned proofgames with multiple diagrams and

>  based

> on repetition of the same position for the third time.  For the sake of

> getting the historical facts right, here my own achievements:  my first

> proofgame with more than two positions, in this case five positions, was

> awarded 4th Pl. in Springaren  Summer Tourney 1997.   My first proofgame

> with elements of repetetion of position was as original in the Finnish

> Solving Championship 1992 and published in Suomen Tehtavaniekat 4/1992.

> Does anyone know earlier examples?

> 

> 

> Need for a database

> 

> The above said gives the thought that we should have some type of

>  database

> for our retro problems. What would be a better place that the Retro

>  Corner?

> It could include first publishing of its type and record

>  achievements; there

> could be as retros, constructional tasks, proofgames, fairy

>  conditions etc.

> Examples of what would be good to have as centralized common

>  information:

> 

> Historical facts

> -First proofgame with variation in move order

> -First proofgame with single solution 

> -First proofgame with two / three solutions

> -First retro based on 50 moves rule

> -etc

> 

> and in the record area

> 

> -Longest proofgame from IP 

> -Longest proofgame from A to B. Nobody has tried yet!  

> -Longest proofgame starting from Random Chess (Fischerandom). Nobody has

> tried yet!

> -Promotions

> -etc 

> 

> 

> Compare with endgames

> 

> Let's look on how well the endgame study community is doing:  the

>  magazine

> EG with primus motor AJ Roycroft publishes copy of all awards in the

>  world.

> There is an electronic collection of endgames by H. van der Heijden, who

> also provides anticipation services. Is there anything that goes

>  unnoticed

> in the endgame world? 

> 

> Proofgames and other retros have gained great popularity in recent

>  years.

> The Gert Wilts book from early nineties covered everything in

>  proofgames up

> to then.  But after that we have had an explosion, which is

>  published all

> over the world.  This means that the present results are known to

>  nobody.

> Something should be done.

> 

> If we don't want to copy the concept of the endgames, then we could

>  have a

> database gathering all essential that has been done. So far there

>  are only

> part of the new retros reproduced in the Retro Corner. What could

>  prevent us

> from republishing all retro problems that are being published in the

>  world

> (are there any copyright issues?).  Then we would all be up-to-date!

> 

> All problem chess achievements will be put into electronic form

>  sooner or

> later; if we do it sooner the task will be easier.

> 

> For the moment there is in Retro corner an interesting exercise

>  going on:

> proofgames with the minimum number of moves with a specific feature e.g.

> with a pawn mating on 2nd/7th rank.  Personally I have not been able to

> study all contributions, but I would be really interested to see the end

> results.  But where will these be found?  Answer: by going through all

> contributions there have been? No, that’s impossible, the answer is

>  in the

> suggested database. 

> 

> If the idea is good, then we only need somebody to organize it!  

>  Comments

> are welcome.

> 

> Espoo,  Finland  21.12.2006

> 

> Per Olin

> 

> 

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