[Retros] Mate with a 3-fold repetition

[joose norri]

----------------------------------------> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:54:54 +0100> From: A.J.Mestel at damtp.cam.ac.uk> To: retros at janko.at> CC: peufe at tin.it> Subject: Re: [Retros] Mate with a 3-fold repetition>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Mark Tilford wrote:>>>>>>>> What are the rules if someone loses on time and the only conceivable way>>>> he could be mated would lead to a 3-fold repetition? Is it assumed that if>>>> he is playing badly he would forget to claim a draw? I suppose that's>>>> logical.>>>>>>>> Jonathan>>>>>> What you say is not clear for me.>>> How can be a 3-fold repetition the only way to give mate?>>> The repeated position could'nt just be the mate,>>> and if it is'nt the mate it is useless, so it can't be "the only>>> conceivable way".>>> Did you mean a mate more than 50 moves longer?>>>>>> Franco>>>>>>> Perhaps an intermediate position on the path to the checkmate was>> passed previously, and the player didn't notice that he missed a mate.>>>>> _______________________________________________>> Yes that's what I meant. Something like this once happened to me at an> Olympiad against Lev Alburt. At the 2nd time control I had a winning> attack but was short of time. So I repeated position to reach the time> control, to analyse the position preoperly. I then saw I had a simple win,> but only if I repeated the position a 3rd time! So I had to find another> move in an attempt to win. But what made this worse, is that the game was> on a demonstration board; many of the strongest players in the world were> passing by, looking at the position (which didn't show its history, of> course!!) and finding the fairly obvious win and wondered why on earth I> didn't play it!! The most frustrating aspect was I could feel everyone> laughing at me, not knowing the retro-content of the position...>>> Imagine a position like 5bk1/4p1p1/4P1P1/1p1p4/1P1P4/K7/8/8//>> Surprisingly, the positions with W Ke5 and B Kg8 and B Kg8 have both> occurred twice before. Black loses on time trying to find his only legal> move. The only way White can win leads to 3-fold repetition. Is it fair> that Black should lose?>> And is it fair that one can lose on time with only one legal move!?>> And something serious I don't know the answer to - can one lose on time> while considering a draw offer, or can one accept the offer after one's> flag falls?>> Jonathan> _______________________________________________> Retros mailing list> Retros at janko.at> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros

A very similar case was Szabo - Byrne once upon a time. Szabo repeated the position on moves 54 and 56, reaching the control. There followed a long phase of manoeuvring, until Szabo finally saw a win... but he would have had to repeat the position a third time, on move 88 no less!

I used to think that one could accept the draw after the flag fell, and it was that way until the 80s, but I was very emphatically assured by a very experienced arbiter that one cannot.

Joose 
_________________________________________________________________
Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger 
http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline