[Retros] Mate with a 3-fold repetition

[Rol, Guus]

Fair assumption. Moreover, there is a definite problem if we extend
Joost's interpretation to 5.2 (a) or (b). Consider this quite realistic
scenario. A player makes a move and just before completing it, his flag
falls. Lacking nanosecond reaction speed, the players only notice this
event once his opponents clock is running. The position by then is a
literally dead draw. If we may somehow assume that the player according
to 5.2(b)/6.10 is retrospectively exempt from the duty to complete his
prescribed number of moves within the allotted time, then he can now be
rewarded a draw! Unjustly of course, since the position was not yet dead
at the precise point his flag went down. If, on the other hand, we are
obliged to evaluate 5.2 at the exact moment the flag falls, then no
delay is available for agreeing a draw after that point as in 5.2(c) and
the player loses the game.

The debate arises from the circumstance that the exception clause in
6.10 regarding 5.2 (I haven't looked at 5.1) is in itself confusing.
5.2(a) and 5.2(b) always terminate the game automatically before any
flag can fall placing such an event outside the scope of the game.
5.2(c) is tricky for the valid reasons supplied by Joost; 9.1 helps us
in identifying points of rejecting the draw offer but not of its
acceptance by agreement. Nevertheless, if 6.10 were intended to create
an exception clause for draw acception beyond game time expiration, then
it would not have been lumped in the same bag with 5.2(a) and 5.2(b)
where such an interpretation is clearly awkward. Frankly, I can't see
why 6.10 does not simply read: "If a player, with the game alive, does
not complete the prescribed number of moves in the allotted time, the
game is lost by the player".

Guus Rol.


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] Namens A J
Mestel
Verzonden: donderdag 11 oktober 2007 16:11
Aan: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List
Onderwerp: Re: [Retros] Mate with a 3-fold repetition


Well there's rule 9.1, saying the offer remains open until it is 
accepted or the game ends "in some other way"...I think the flag falling

would be deemed to be "some other way."


   9.1.

       A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a 
move on the chessboard and before stopping his clock and starting the 
opponent`s clock. An offer at any other time during play is still valid,

but Article 12.6 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to
the 
offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid
until 
the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by touching a
piece 
with the intention of moving or capturing it, or the game is concluded
in 
some other way.


  On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Joost de Heer wrote:


>

>

> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, joose norri wrote:

>

>>  I used to think that one could accept the draw after the flag fell, 

>> and it  was that way until the 80s, but I was very emphatically 

>> assured by a very  experienced arbiter that one cannot.

>

> Hmm:

>

> 5.2

>

>   a. The game is drawn when the player to move has no legal move and 

> his

> king is not in check. The game is said to end in `stalemate`. This 

> immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the

stalemate 

> position was legal.

>   b. The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither

player 

> can checkmate the opponent`s king with any series of legal moves. The

game is 

> said to end in a `dead position`. This immediately ends the game,

provided 

> that the move producing the position was legal.

>   c. The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during

the 

> game. This immediately ends the game. (See Article 9.1)

>

> 6.10

>

> Except where Articles 5.1 or one of the Articles 5.2 (a), (b) and (c) 

> apply,

> if a player does not complete the prescribed number of moves in the

allotted 

> time, the game is lost by the player. However, the game is drawn, if

the 

> position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player`s king

by any 

> possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled

counterplay.

>

> The way I interpret this, one could accept a draw offer after the flag



> has

> fallen. 5.2.c is active, so 6.10 should not be applied, because there

is 

> nowhere a definition of 'finalizing the draw offer' (when the offer is



> accepted with a 'yes'? When the players shake hands? When 1/2-1/2 is

written 

> on the score sheet? Something else?)

>

> Joost

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>

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