[Retros] Promotion: legal order of partial actions

[raosorio at fibertel.com.ar]

Hi Joost,

I think that my yesterday's mail was a bit dissordered. Sorry.

Let's take the following example as a position in a real game,


5nbr/4Pppk/7p/8/8/pq6/8/K7
white to move

a) the white side player takes a white Queen, places it on e8, removes the e7
pawn and presses the clock.

b) the player takes a white Queen, places it on e8 and presses the clock.

Let's assume that in both cases the judge is looking the game.

In both cases the move would be illegal (formally in case a). So, it has to be retracted and
there is a 2 min penalty. But what after that?

In case a) we could say that the player touched the pawn and he is forced to move it,
(article 4) paying no attention to the Queen he placed on e8. Then, the player is free
to play e7xNf8++.

In case b) the situation is even worst. The pawn was not touched and the player is free
to make what he wants to (including e7xNf8++).

Something here is is in strong conflict with the common sense. The player made an illegal 
(formal) move, putting things (a queen) on the board with a clear indication of his
intention to promote a queen. Could him be beneficiated by his illegality while there
were clear indication of a queen promotion, made in a just formally illegal way?

Isn't it much more logical to interpretate that article 4.6 spirit has to be applied here?
(4.6  When, as a legal move or part of a legal move, a piece has been released on a square, 
it cannot then be moved to another square). As an extension, it could be interpretated that 
the player is forced, after the 7.4 retraction, to make exactly the move he intended to do
but in a formally proper way (all of this is a bit strange, but to leave the player free
after the illegality is even stranger in my opinion).

Best,
Roberto




Hi Joost, 

Thanks for your answer. 

This is quite peculiar. Article 4 does not stablish any penalty related to 
"legal order of partial actions" when promoting as it does for the castling case. 

Based on this, my reassoning was "how could it be illegal having no consequences? 
Only in Argentina! 

Then I found in article 7.4 the following, 
---------------------- 
7.4 If during a game it is found that an illegal move, including failing to meet the requirements of the promotion of a pawn or capturing the opponent’s king, has been completed, the position immediately before the irregularity shall be reinstated. If the position immediately before the irregularity cannot be determined, the game shall continue from the last identifiable position prior to the irregularity. The clocks shall be adjusted according to Article 6.14. Article 4.3 applies to the move replacing the illegal move. The game shall then continue from this reinstated position. 

After the action taken under Article 7.4(a), for the first two illegal moves by a player the arbiter shall give two minutes extra time to his opponent in each instance; for a third illegal move by the same player, the arbiter shall declare the game lost by this player. 
------------------------ 


but this is the Irregularities article. Since the promotion case has no penalty in article 4, what should 
we assume? If we find the "illegal" order of a promotion in a chess problem should we iterate within 
article 7.4 up to conclude that that side looses the game? 

This question makes sense for chess problems. I repeat here the antecedent showing the 
reversed order, 

Lothar Finzer 
(I) Die Schwalbe 8 04/1971 
R6B/P7/4P3/1Q1Bp3/8/3N2p1/8/k5KR 
#0,5 
3 solutions 

It was accepted that time. This problem forces the promotion by the stipulation, but I have 
compossed some examples where the half promotion (reversed order) is clear from the 
retroanalysis. This alternative provides a very rich field to composse fractional move 
problems. Isn't it the richer the better? 

Some question for the real game: 
if the player installs a Queen in the promotion square and remove the pawn after that, then 
apparently 7.4 applies. So, the Queen touching is equivalent to a chair touching, resulting in no 
comeetment? Is the player allowed to promote a Knight after? Is he allowed to promote on other 
square (capturing)? 

Roberto Osorio 



Message: 3 
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:04:59 +0100 (CET) 
From: Joost de Heer <joost at sanguis.xs4all.nl> 
Subject: Re: [Retros] Promotion: legal order of partial actions 
To: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List <retros at janko.at> 
Message-ID: <20080211120153.M38216 at router.joost.localnet> 
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed 



> Defining the cases of partial legal moves a question appears. 



> I have in mind the image that nobody touches the eight rank with 



> the pawn. So, I tend to interpretate straight promotion as a sum of 



> two partial actions, 



> 



> a) to pick out the pawn 



> b) to install the promoted piece on the promotion square 



> 



> But, is there a legal order? I know many players (including me) that makes b) first. 





>From the FIDE rules: 


3.7e: When a pawn reaches the rank furthest from its starting position it 
must be exchanged as part of the same move for a new queen, rook, bishop 
or knight of the same colour. The player`s choice is not restricted to 
pieces that have been captured previously. This exchange of a pawn for 
another piece is called `promotion` and the effect of the new piece is 
immediate. 

4.6c: in the case of the promotion of a pawn, when the pawn has been 
removed from the chessboard and the player`s hand has released the new 
piece after placing it on the promotion square. If the player has released 
from his hand the pawn that has reached the promotion square, the move is 
not yet made, but the player no longer has the right to play the pawn to 
another square. 

Both (IMO) indicate that first the pawn move must be made, and then the 
substitute piece must be added. It even implies (again, IMO) that the pawn 
move to the promotion rank must be made, you can't remove a pawn from the 
7th rank and then place a rook on the 8th, instead you have to move the 
pawn to the promotion rank, remove it, and then substitute it. 

Joost