[Retros] linguistic hole

[Kevin Begley]

Here's my take:
The consensus should be that whomever had the idea to name this after
Harry Potter fiction had no business naming such a theme -- and the
suggestion deserves not one place in the nomination of fifty (to be
later voted upon) names for any given theme.

Before you can call for a vote, you must call for a process to select
what is to be voted upon.

Kevin.


On 2/21/10, Otto Janko <otto at janko.at> wrote:

>

>

> Ok, now some time has gone without any mail w.r.t. this topic. How do we

> come to a conclusion? Voting? Or is there consensus? (If yes, which ohne?)

>

> ~ÔttÔ~

>

>

>  ________________________________

>  From: retros-bounces at janko.at

> [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of andrew

> buchanan

> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 3:30 AM

> To: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List

> Subject: Re: [Retros] linguistic hole

>

>

>

>

> If consensus can't evolve, then I think voting would be a great idea.

>

> Thanks for all the suggestions.

>

> I think that for the general term for surviving promoted pawns, Guus'

> suggestion of "parvenu" is better than either of the other suggestions I

> made. Parvenu is a word in English, but obviously derives from French.

> Sometimes these borrowed words have different meanings. What is the sense in

> French?

>

> As far as the specific term for non-Phoenix survivor there are a number of

> good suggestions, I am awestruck by the appositeness of Otto's "Horcrux". I

> am far too old to know Harry Potter well, but I enjoyed the movies. Key

> things that Wikipedia pointed out to me is that the Horcrux creation

> precedes the death of the original, that it can be a person (SPOILER WARNING

> heh), and that it involves a sacrifice (just as a promotion implies a

> capture). It's a 7 letter word ending in "x" referring to a fictional object

> and I don't think we could ask for more. Also would be recognizable to

> younger newcomers who we ought to be interested in introducing to our little

> hobby.

>

> It also occurs to me that in some proof games it may be difficult to

> determine which pieces are Phoenix, and which are "Horcrux".

> Suppose:

> - a rook is captured

> - two pawns promote to rook

> - another original rook is captured

>

> Which pawn is the Phoenix? Unless there is some kind of Pronkin action going

> on to associate "parvenus" with originals, there is no clear way to do it.

>

> All the best,

> Andy.

>

> PS: I think Parsefal should be made a term some day, for something.

>

>

>  ________________________________

>  From: Steve Dowd <sdowd367 at gmail.com>

> To: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List <retros at janko.at>

> Sent: Tue, January 19, 2010 7:59:38 PM

> Subject: Re: [Retros] linguistic hole

>

>  Why not ask Milan if the Mat Plus forum survey option could be used for

> seeing who likes  whichof the various options we have seen here? It seems

> perfectly suited to the task, or perhaps another webmaster might post a

> survey?

>

>

> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Forlot <dominique.forlot at wanadoo.fr> wrote:

>

> > What do you think about the term:

> >

> > 'Perceval'

> > or

> > 'Parsifal'

> >

> > for these promotions!

> >

> > Its universal in the meaning, ( everybody Know "his Name" )

> > A simple man who 'promote' ... and find the graal!

> >

> > Best regards!

> >

> > Forlot Dominique.

> >

> >

> > -----Message d'origine-----

> > De : retros-bounces at janko.at

> [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] De la part de

> > andrew buchanan

> > Envoyé : dimanche 17 janvier 2010 15:09

> > À : Retros Mailing List

> > Objet : [Retros] linguistic hole

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Retrofriends,

> >

> > It seems to me there is a hole in our language for describing promotions.

> >

> > We like promotions, and we like to have diagrams which are free of

> > non-thematic extraneous promoted units. So if there is a promotion,

> > something may have to be captured at some point, to keep things looking

> > nice.

> >

> > - If it's the promoted unit which is captured, we call it Ceriani-Frolkin

> > and pat ourselves on the back.

> > - If it's an original unit which is captured, we call the promoted unit

> > Phoenix *but* *only* *if* *the *original* *unit* *died* *before* *the

> > *promotion*.

> >

> > We haven't any term for the more general case of a non C-F promotee, where

> > the diagram is free of extraneous promoted units of that type.

> >

> > Some problems are sometimes described as "double Phoenix", e.g.:

> >

> > Henrik Juel

> > rnbqkb1r/ppppp1p1/8/3B4/8/4n3/PPPP1P1P/RNBQK1NR

> > Thema Danicum no. 86, 1997/04

> > (no. 22 in Alain Brobecker's Introduction to Proof Games)

> > PG in 6.0 moves.

> >

> > But actually it isn't - only the second promotion is Phoenix.

> >

> > What we have here I suspect is another adoption of a non-PG term to the PG

> > world, where it doesn't quite work the same way. See:

> >

> > http://dt.dewia.com/yacpdb/?id=271408

> > www.selivanov.ru/download/Magazins/Kudesnik/Cud-104.pdf

> >

> > which are referring in the world of directmates to a Nissl theme (as a

> > subtype of Phoenix I think) where the capture must come *immediately*

> before

> > the promotion. Clearly in direct mates it is more elegant for the original

> > unit to be saced before the promotee reappears.  [Hmmm... Nissl could be

> an

> > interesting theme for a PG exploration...] (Maybe others on the mailing

> list

> > have more experience than I of use of the Phoenix theme in forwards

> > composition.)

> >

> > But what should we do in PG world?

> > (a) continue to abuse the term "Phoenix" some of the time

> > (b) use the term "non-C-F"

> > (c) decide that we don't need a word for this

> > (d) invent a new term

> >

> > I think options a-c are unacceptable. I suggest the term "inheritor". So a

> > Phoenixes is a kind of inheritor (a posthumous one! :). We have still no

> > term for non-Phoenix inheritors, but let's not worry about that now.

> >

> > Comments welcome,

> > Andy.

> >

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