[Retros] Fwd: Proof game promotion task

[Kevin Begley]

Andrey,

  I hope I didn't give the wrong impression -- I have great respect,
both for the authors, and for this remarkable achievement...

  However, I must admit, I tend to prefer your masterfully "artistic"
proofgames, to this task.
  Still, this is a great problem... maybe not top-10, for me, but it
certainly ranks high.

  Also, it is not my intention to criticize the use of promoted pieces.
  In fact, I wonder if the convention has outlived its usefulness...
even for directmates.

  I strive to unlearn such dogmatic problem conventions (much the same
way we all did with opening principles) -- I don't want to limit
myself with the narrow view of beauty.

  Unfortunately, history often requires a spectacular event --
something folks can point to, and declare "that problem made us all
realize that promoted force warranted exploration."

  I don't think the PG57.5, or the Cyclic-Babson, constituted such an event.
  There is something else -- intangible -- missing from these
profoundly remarkable achievements.. call it the human touch...that
one small step that casts, forever, a human footprint upon this, the
highest peak... some emotional response it stirs... I dunno.

  Hey, I am not the leading authority here -- and this is nothing more
than my opinion.
  I might be wrong.

-Kevin.

btw: For anyone curious, I believe the longest ProofGame without
promoted force (indeed, without any promotion) might be
PROBID='P0002554'  (see PDB online).


On 5/11/10, afretro <afretro at yandex.ru> wrote:

>

>

> Dear Kevin,

>

> Retroanalysis is not merely an art form; by its nature it is closely related

> to mathematics. Some prefer artistic achievements; others, numerical

> records. For one thing, it is easier to "rank" the latter, as there are

> extensive differences in composers' esthetic preferences.

>

> Retroanalysis has virtually nothing to do with professional or amateur chess

> playing. Therefore, I don't see any point in bitterly criticizing promoted

> pieces in a problem position because they make the position on the diagram

> "look artificial," etc.

>

> Since they are seen as being "undesirable hints for solvers," promotees

> should be avoided whenever possible, but many records are simply impossible

> without them.

>

> As to the current (20-year-old) length record of 57.5 moves, it is indeed

> extremely unlikely that this should be the absolute maximum. The record

> emerged as a result of extending a felicitous sequence of moves proposed by

> Dmitry Pronkin; in fact it was the first sequence he came up with when it

> had dawned on him that a shortest proof game of record length could be

> composed using numerous promoted force. It is of course highly improbable

> that the very first sequence he found was "the theoretically best one."

> Anyway, we did work hard on extending the game: hundreds of hours spent

> within an 11-month period, about 300 hundred intermediate positions

> "manually tested," etc.

>

> Yours,

>

> Andrey

> 11.05.10, 10:52, "Kevin Begley" <kevinjbegley at gmail.com>:

>

>

> Agreed. Berolina Pawns would only be more challenging.

> They have numerous non-capturing paths to the same square, unlike

> orthodox pawns.

>

> I know of only one Fairy ProofGame which exceeds 57.5 moves...

>

> M.Caillaud

> 2b4R/p4ppp/2pppP2/2p4k/P1q3P1/rP5K/rR1PP2P/1N3Q2

> PG65.5 Minimummer (white & black)

> 3rd H.M., Problem Paradise,

>

> Restricting conditions probably work best: Minimummer, Koko,

> Single-Combat, Bi-chromatic, and the like (or a good combination of

> such conditions).

>

> Fairy records are certainly interesting; but, such an erosion of

> paradox can occur -- it requires great care to preserve artistic

> integrity when employing such conditions.

>

> If you trek through the solution to Caillaud's Proofgame (or better

> yet, solve it), you soon realize that his primary interest was to

> present a thematically rich (read: artistic) problem.

> And, the problem does not fail to deliver!

>

> For the sake of achieving such a task, perhaps no degree of artistry is

> needed.

> However, unlike Yarosh's Babson, few could gaze upon an

> Cyclic-Babson-Task (in orthodox directmate) without having some pity

> for its grotesque realization -- despite the remarkable achievement.

>

> I'm not clear why the same is rarely said of the record lengh

> proofgame (which is sited, almost universally, as the best proofgame

> composed -- without any mention of the abundance of promoted force

> this required).

>

> There seems a disconnect, from one genre to another, as to what

> constitutes an acceptable sacrifice in aesthetics.

>

> Personally, I wouldn't list the PG57.5 in the top 10.

> In fact, I fully expect its length will be surpassed.

>

>

> > I assume this preference is directed at proof games, because I see no

> > obvious or other reason why other captures are "better" than pawn captures

> > in orthodox retroanalysis.

> > Tom Volet

> >

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