[Retros] rights & ocassions / not answering Andrew anymore

Mon May 26 15:20:29 EDT 2014

Dear Guus,

Many thanks for the recollection of your problem!   Some observations:

- The stipulation is interesting, can it be stated as short as 'Drawn'?  The PDB gives 'Die Stellung ist remis.  BP in 41.5'  Somehow I think that the number of moves must be given or alternatively required Shortest (proof)game.

- The repetition phase of 12 moves is, as far as I know,  the record.   I will certainly,  probably not take any challenge to try for a longer one or one with a better ratio repetition versus non-repetition moves.  Life is too short for that!

- As the problem got 2nd Prize Probleemblad 2003, it means that PDB has not been updated with that information (certainly not the only one with missing distinctions).

- Premature repetition  -  is this a try where the repetition cycle is too short in the try compared to the stipulation and in the solution there is a longer one?

- Little bug!?  I don't think it has anything to do with how the stipulation is expressed.  That is more a technical matter.   Now the whole Retro community has something to think about,  suggestions have already been given.   I interpret it not to be serious as giving it away would spoil some fun.

Looking forward to you future book!

Best wishes
Per

Guus Rol kirjoitti 26.05.2014 kello 20:03:
> Dear Per,
> 
> The 2003 SPG problem is "correct" under the stipulation it was published
> under, which was "drawn", or "remisiert" in german. This is much better
> than "draw" which is commonly perceived as an instruction to "play and
> draw". As a fait accompli,  "drawn" clearly delivers extra
>  information to
> the solver needed to make the solution unambiguous. One of the
>  hidden retro
> conventions is that players cannot surrender and cannot agree to a
>  draw. An
> automat of some kind is required to do the job.
> 
> Is it computer-checked? The first 18 moves were already
>  computer-checked in
> 2003, the rep-cycle was too complicated then and apparently still is
>  today.
> I am sure though Michel Caillaud checked it out before he withdrew
>  his own
> version on the same theme. We were working on the same material in that
> time. Fortunately, I had a head start on Michel of about one year. You
> can't expect to beat him in a an even contest!
> 
> How I composed it? The way one expects from retro composers, back to
>  front.
> First I designed the long repetition cycle in several stages. As
>  there was
> still lots of freedom and material unused, I then attempted to setup
>  an SPG
> around it. I ended up with 3 versions one of which was refuted by the
> computer. I chose the cleanest one remainng to put all emphasis on
>  the rep
> cycle. If I am not mistaken, this is now also the SPG with the highest
> (possible?) ratio of repetition versus non-repetition moves. There
>  are some
> very short SPGs with repetition cycles but I couldn't find one with
>  better
> statistics than mine. You can take that as a challenge if you like!
> 
> Was the composition a success? Yes and No. It showed good content and
> scored 2nd prize in Probleemblad. On the down side, I also intended
>  it to
> demonstrate a "premature repetition" try - see my other problems in that
> period - but couldn't find an SPG to match. And then there is the little
> bug nobody noticed and which I trust somebody will find out about
>  some day.
> Why spoil the fun by giving it away now?
> 
> Will it be in my book? Probably as an introduction to automatic
>  draws. It
> is a good example but without much theoretical significance. "Premature
> repetitions" is a far more interesting and controversial subject for
> treatment and debate. Ask Andrew about that!
> 
> Best, wishes,
> 
> Guus Rol.
> 
> On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 10:26 AM, per olin <per.olin at luukku.com> wrote:
> 
> > Dear all,
> >
> > The discussion here has centered around situations, where the subsequent
> > play makes only one start of a game possible from many possibilities. The
> > problem from 2003 is probably not of this type.   The move sequence up to
> > 18.Txg8+ is unique (C+ Euclide);   the repetition moves are separate from
> > this.  I recall some time ago testing the repetition phase with Popeye
> > a=>b.  I am not sure did I get the whole sequence tested, could be that I
> > stopped after having only the major part tested.  Perhaps somebody with
> > better computer abilities or the author can verify the uniqueness of the
> > repetitions.
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Per
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Nicolas Dupont kirjoitti 24.05.2014 kello 00:49:
> >  > Dear all,
> > >
> > > > P1011937,
> > > > Guus Rol
> > > > R222 Probleemblad 12/2003
> > > >
> > > > (13+13) C+
> > > > Die Stellung ist Remis. BP in 41,5
> > > > 1. h4 g5 2. hxg5 d5 3. Th6 d4 4. Tg6 Lh6 5. Tg7 d3 6. g6 dxc2 7. d4
> > > > Dd5 8. Lg5 Dxg2 9. Kd2 Dd5 10. e4 Dxa2 11. Df3 De6 12. d5 Sf6 13.
> > > > dxe6 Sd5 14. Df6 Sc6 15. f3 Sd8 16. Lb5+ c6 17. Se2 Tg8 18. Txg8+
> > > > Lf8 19. Df4 Sf6 20. Th8 Sg8 21. Lf6 Lh6 22. Lg7 Lg5 23. Lf8 Sf6 24.
> > > > Tg8 Sd7 25. Lg7+ Sf8 26. Lf6 Lh6 27. Tg7 Sd7 28. Lg5 Sb6 29. Df6 Sd5
> > > >  30. Tg8+ Lf8 31. Df4 Sf6 32. Th8 Sg8 33. Lf6 Lh6 34. Lg7 Lg5 35.
> > > > Lf8  Sf6 36. Tg8 Sd7 37. Lg7+ Sf8 38. Lf6 Lh6 39. Tg7 Sd7 40. Lg5
> > > > Sb6 41.  Df6 Sd5 42. Tg8+ remis
> > >
> > > If I understand, the stipulation means that there are plenty of
> > > solutions (for example moves by the wQ are not uniquely determined),
> > > but only one where the diagram position already occured 2 times during
> > > the solution.
> > >
> > > It seems curious that PDB asserts it is computer tested with Natch,
> > > although shorter games with same stipulation are not (e.g. P1003993 in
> > > 11.5). Is it a mistake or is there really a way to check such
> > > problems? Looking at hand each solution to detect the only one
> > > satisfying the hypothesis?
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Nicolas.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Retros mailing list
> > > Retros at janko.at
> > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros
> >
> >
> >  ....................................................................
> > Luukku Plus -paketilla pääset eroon tila- ja turvallisuusongelmista.
> > Hanki Luukku Plus ja helpotat elämääsi. http://www.mtv3.fi/luukku
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Retros mailing list
> > Retros at janko.at
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros
> >
> >

....................................................................
Luukku Plus -paketilla pääset eroon tila- ja turvallisuusongelmista.
Hanki Luukku Plus ja helpotat elämääsi. http://www.mtv3.fi/luukku