[Retros] Natch 3.0 beta is out
Juha
juha_saukkola at hotmail.com
Sun Jul 31 18:03:56 EDT 2016
Have you ever thought what is the total number of correct spg's?
________________________________
Lähettäjä: Retros <retros-bounces at janko.at> käyttäjän Pascal Wassong <pascal.wassong at free.fr> puolesta
Lähetetty: 30. heinäkuuta 2016 0:44
Vastaanottaja: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List
Aihe: Re: [Retros] Natch 3.0 beta is out
The reason why black can't castle is explained near the diagram. In the
second position, from Dawson, the reason is a bit more complicated, but
you can find it yourself. The solution is also explained, but in
german. There are many more problems like these, with sometimes very
complicated reasoning neaded to find the "why".
>>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
Paulo> Oh, found it... Nevermind! I agree that it uses the same
Paulo> "trick" as my problem: blacks can't castle anymore.
Paulo> But the conclusion about "why" is much simpler than my problem.
Paulo> Paulo
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Wow... About the first problem, can you explain to me why blacks
>> cannot castle? (if its not too complicated, of course)
>>
>> Thanks, Paulo
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, ok!
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Pascal Wassong
>>> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The links are correct, I tested them. You should maybe
>>>> copy/paste the whole link, instead of just clicking on it. When
>>>> I try to click on it, the last part, containing the problem
>>>> number, is ignored.
>>>>
>>>> If it still doesn't work, go to the home page of the site
>>>> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de and enter the search expression, for
>>>> example PROBID='P0002056'
>>>>
>>>> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
Paulo> The links don't work! Paulo
>>>>
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> Paulo,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I made a quick search in the online retrograde database. I
>>>> found a >> mate in 2, where black cannot castle dating back to
>>>> 1859. By Sam >> Loyd of course: >>
>>>> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/search.jsp?expression=PROBID='P0002056'
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Another problem, from year 1915, more in the spirit of your >>
>>>> problem, by another great composer of the retrograde analysis >>
>>>> earlier times, Thomas R. Dawson: >>
>>>> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/search.jsp?expression=PROBID='P0001326'
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I made the search from the page http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/ and
>>>> >> entered the following expression : STIP='#2' and G='retro' and
>>>> >> K='Cant Castler'
>>>> >>
>>>> >> To learn how to write expressions, you should use the examples
>>>> >> page. This database is the most accurate online base for >>
>>>> retrograde problems.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Have fun exploring the database. Pascal
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>
Paulo> Ok, I see... :-) I'm very newbie to all this retro analysis,
Paulo> and not very literate to chess in general.
>>>> >>
Paulo> That is a problem a friend of mine and I have invented, without
Paulo> even knowing there was an established "retro" type of problems.
>>>> >>
Paulo> I have written a solution with proof in english for the
Paulo> problem, but I am just trying to find a means to "prove the
Paulo> proof", with some kind of computer help...
>>>> >>
Paulo> Thanks anyway! Paulo
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >> Hi again :)
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> no, Natch cannot help. This is a classical retro, not a >>
>>>> shortest >> proof game. Natch is absolutely not done to answer
>>>> >> your question.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> The number of games to reach your position with the
>>>> shortest >> number >> of moves are by millions. Even if Natch
>>>> would give all >> these games >> (which would take years), you
>>>> still would have to >> check that in all >> games, the bK has
>>>> moved.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> It is easy (at least for me !) to see that in your
>>>> position, the >> bK >> must have moved, so the black castling is
>>>> illegal in this >> position. >> The proof is not very
>>>> complicated to write down in >> plain english. >> You should do
>>>> it, as this is generally printed >> with the solution.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> There are many problems of this kind already existing.
>>>> This is >> a >> very old trick, maybe 100 years old.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Pascal
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >> >>
Paulo> That is my initial position:
Paulo> 4k2r/pp2p1p1/P7/4Np2/1B4Q1/P2NP1n1/1PbP3q/K2R3R
>>>> >> >>
Paulo> The idea is to prove that the Black King has moved and cannot
Paulo> castle anymore. Can Natch help in any means?
>>>> >> >>
Paulo> Thanks,
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Hi Paulo,
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Natch is absolutely not done to solve this kind of
>>>> problems. >> It >> >> will take way too much time, and spit out
>>>> way too much >> >> solutions.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Checking if your initial position is legal is easy for
>>>> >> anybody >> used >> to solve retrograde problems. Finding the
>>>> >> shortest proof >> game to >> your position is probably not >>
>>>> interesting at all. About >> 80 or 100 >> years ago, this was >>
>>>> sometimes done to show that a >> position is >> legal. Nowadays,
>>>> >> nobody does it anymore.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> If you intend to publish your problem, the section
>>>> editor >> where >> you >> will send it will be able to tell you
>>>> if your >> position is >> legal or >> not.
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> Pascal
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com>
>>>> writes:
>>>> >> >> >>
Paulo> Its for a problem I invented. Its a "mate in 2" problem that
Paulo> requires retro analysis, and I want to check if the starting
Paulo> position is really reachable in a normal valid game. So I don't
Paulo> really know how many moves it would require to get there. I
Paulo> want to find the minimum number of moves possible.
>>>> >> >> >>
Paulo> Thanks, Paulo
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >>
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> Hello,
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> thank you for using iNatch and Natch !
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> For iNatch, the version 0.7 has been created for 32
>>>> bits >> >> >> machines, >> this is a bit outdated. I suggest
>>>> using the >> previous >> >> version >> 0.6.2, which is a full
>>>> java version, >> independant from >> 32 >> bits or 64 >> bits.
>>>> Many users (me >> included) prefer the >> 0.6.2 >> version.
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> For Natch, you must provide the number of moves. It
>>>> is >> >> strange >> to >> want to try Natch on a position without
>>>> knowing >> >> the minimum >> number >> of moves needed to reach
>>>> it. You could >> >> test the position >> while >> increasing the
>>>> number of moves at >> >> each try.
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> Best wishes, Pascal
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com>
>>>> writes:
>>>> >> >> >> >>
Paulo> Tried to run iNatch, but it does not start in my machine. Java8
Paulo> installed. The logs say:
>>>> >> >> >> >>
Paulo> !ENTRY org.eclipse.osgi 4 0 2016-07-29 14:45:04.760 !MESSAGE
Paulo> Application error !STACK 1 java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: no
Paulo> swt-win32-3320 or swt-win32 in swt.library.path,
Paulo> java.libary.path or the jar file
>>>> >> >> >> >>
Paulo> Also, can I use Natch to find a solution to a position, but I
Paulo> don't know how many moves it would take to get to that
Paulo> position?
>>>> >> >> >> >>
Paulo> Thanks, Paulo
>>>> >> >> >> >>
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>>>> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> Hello all,
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> 19 years after the first version, 7 years after
>>>> the >> latest >> >> >> version, >> a new version of Natch is out.
>>>> It is >> version 3.0 >> beta. >> >> You can >> download it from
>>>> >> http://Natch.free.fr .
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> Previous version already computed the order of
>>>> some >> moves. >> >> This >> >> was used to eliminate position
>>>> having >> cycles in it. >> For >> example >> >> Pa2-a8=N-b6*Pa7
>>>> and Pa7xb6. >> These move orders >> found >> for a >> position
>>>> >> are now used >> when searching for the >> moves. >> For >>
>>>> example, if black >> >> must play Rh8-e8-e3-c3 and >> white >>
>>>> Pe2-e4, the >> wPe2 won't be >> allowed >> to move before the >>
>>>> black >> rook arrived at >> c3. >> This improvement >> increase
>>>> the >> speed of >> resolution of many >> >> problems, and makes
>>>> the >> >> --watch (-k for >> short) preaty >> useless.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> Many more move orders are also found.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> A bug has been corrected, where some solutions
>>>> where >> not >> >> found.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> A bug has been corrected on Mac, which made the
>>>> program >> >> crash >> >> when >> the hash-tables where full. I
>>>> was surprised >> to >> learn >> about >> this >> problem so late.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> There are also minor changes in the output file
>>>> and >> when >> >> using >> the >> visual option.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> More details about this new version are available
>>>> in >> the >> NEWS >> >> file >> available when you download the
>>>> beta >> version.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> There were many bugs in the numerous alpha version
>>>> >> while >> >> >> developing >> this 3.0 version, which have been
>>>> >> found by the >> >> >> testers, mainly >> Michel Caillaud and
>>>> >> Thierry Le Gleuher. >> Thanks >> >> to them and to the >>
>>>> other >> testers.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> There may still be bugs in this version. If you
>>>> find >> one, >> >> don't >> >> hesitate to send it to me. The
>>>> informations >> needed >> >> are: - the >> >> proof game, being
>>>> as short as >> possible, that >> >> reproduces the bug; >> - >>
>>>> the expected >> solution; - the number of >> >> the position
>>>> where the >> bug >> >> occurs, if needed; - a clear >> >>
>>>> description of what is going >> >> wrong.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> The precompiled version for windows is a 64 bits
>>>> >> version. >> I >> >> could >> also prepare a 32 bits windows
>>>> >> version, if enough >> >> people >> are >> interested.
>>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>>> >> >> >> >> >> Happy composing, Pascal >> >> >> >> >>
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>>
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