[Jacob-list] Ed and E+

[Carl Fosbrink]

       I do not study genetics. but I am interested in what produces what in 
my Jacobs and I know from experience that lilac to lilac produces all lilac 
lambs and lilac carrier to lilac carrier  produces mostly b&w, but some 
lilacs. I have bred a separate lilac flock to see what is produced and if 
the color fades when breeding lilac to lilac. It seems the color does not 
fade by breeding lilac to lilac, but the fading is in some individuals and 
not in others just like in the b&w so one should cull the faders out. It is 
natural for the tips of the wool to fade from the sun just like in the b&w 
and since the lilac is lighter to start with that color will fade out to 
where it is hard to see on the surface on some individuals. The lilac color 
is a lovely color of wool and sought after by spinners. The lilac color is 
in the line of Jacobs from the Isle of Skye, Chicago Zoo, imports for sure, 
but I'm not sure about the early
English imports and the later English imports and would be interested in 
finding out more about lilacs in the English imports before they were 
crossed with the Isle of
Skye imports. I have a ram from the English imports and he is not a lilac 
carrier because he has not produce any lilac lambs even when bred to a lilac 
ewe. Every ram I have had from the Isle of Skye import lines has been a 
lilac carrier. I have mostly b&w Jacobs, but like having some lilacs in my 
flock too. The lilac color is just as natural a color in Jacobs as b&w is, 
but is a recessive color and b&w is a dominate color.
        I am glad there are people like Neal who study the scientific part 
of genetics. I like studying what produces what in Jacobs, but am not into 
the scientific part of it. I was the same way when I bred and exhibited 
poultry. I found it very exciting to figure out what produced what, but 
never studied the scientific part of genetics. I am lost when people start 
talking about letters like Ed etc. In breeding poultry I found that the 
conformation came mostly from the female side and the color came mostly from 
the male side. I also found that eye color could tell you if a chicken was 
healthy or not.
       When breeding Jacobs it is much more difficult because of the more 
open standard for the breed. I have also found that the same set of ewes and 
ram can one year produce a lot of lambs with say slipped eye patches and the 
next year not. I have found that breeding for strong symmetrical horns or 
40% black  or black hooves and leg markings will increase the number of good 
offspring you get when you are  selective about what you use for breeding so 
use the best individuals for breeding you can get. When I first got into 
Jacobs it was hard to get ewes with good horns and I learned that using ewes 
with strong symmetrical horns would produce rams and ewes with good horn 
sets. I also found that Jacobs with black hooves never needed their hooves 
trimmed. Another thing I learned was that freckling was easy to get rid of 
by using unfreckled rams, and using 2Hs for breeding has nothing to do with 
SUED.

Carl

-----Original Message----- 
From: Neal Grose
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 1:29 PM
To: Hettick, Heather ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Ed and E+

Our experience here is that you must cross a lilac carrier to a lilac
carrier to produce lilac. In other words, there must be two copies of the
lilac gene to suppress the dominant black. Therefore, it is not carried at
the black loci (Ed ).

Neal Grose

-----Original Message----- 
From: Hettick, Heather
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 10:25 AM
To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Subject: [Jacob-list] Ed and E+

I think most Jacobs are considered EdEd, but some are EdE+.  I had a lilac
ewe who produced a spotted black badgerfaced lamb with an Icelandic ram who
was black badgerfaced and carried spotting, so she had to be EdE+.   She
also tended to fade a lot, which may or may not make a difference. The two
lilac ewes I still have only produced black lambs bred to a solid moorit
Icelandic ram two years in a row.  This year they both have black or
black/white spotted lambs bred to a white ram who carries spotting.  I feel
fairly confident that they are both EdEd.

I have a Jacob/ mostlyTunis cross ewe who produces the coolest colored
lambs.  She is EdE+ and looks like a Jacob cross - black with a small  white
spot on her poll.  Bred to Jacob rams, she produced classic looking black
with some white lambs.   Last year, with a moorit solid Icelandic ram, she
had two blue ewe lambs.  I think their pattern is considered light blue -
they have tear spots and their bodies grayed from the sides outwards leaving
a dark line down their backs, and they have black legs and faces.   This
pattern has to  come from their mother, either hidden under Jacob Ed or from
the Tunis side which includes a colored Romney ancestor as her "Tunis"
mother was 1/8 Romney.

This year we bred her to a black mouflon (reverse badgerface) ram who
carries moorit and spotting and got two spotted lambs with both the mouflon
pattern and probably her blue pattern, and a weird brown ram who is graying
from the skin.   I don't think she carries moorit, although her Jacob father
was a lilac carrier - which isn't moorit anyway.   I'm not sure if he's
actually moorit or just phao colored from the Tunis side.  He doesn't have
the teardrop spots, but has some kind of gray pattern - more like Icelandic
gray, but his father doesn't carry gray.   I think she carries the light
blue pattern and a gray pattern, which we couldn't see because of the Ed and
one of her patterns would have to come from her Jacob sire.

One of her half Icelandic daughters had a classic colored Jacob cross ewe
lamb - black with white cap.  This one makes sense since our white ram is
black under his white and carries spotting and I think has the solid,
pattern based on other lambs he produced.  The other daughter had another
sort of strange brown ram.  He actually looks more like he could be  a
white with phao lamb though as the color is patchier and lighter than our
other brown cross ram.  Both daughters were bred to our white Icelandic ram
who I don't think carries moorit so I think this brown lamb probably is
white with phao.

I don't understand phao coloring too much, but I think that's what the
Tunis's have that makes them red.  Is it possible this could be what lilac
is?

When I see phao in Icelandics, it's more tan or golden, although I've heard
it can be a stronger color too.  Some Tunis really have dark red, and my one
lamb who may  have phao coloring has really rich brown on his face and legs.
I wish I had room to keep him and could breed him to my lilac Jacob ewes to
see what we'd get.


Heather Hettick
Moonstruck Farm
Creston, OH
www.moonstruckfarm.wordpress.com








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