[Jacob-list] Ed and E+

[Linda]

It's obvious that lilac is a recessive, but not so obvious about where 
it is carried. The dilute explanation makes the most sense to me also. I 
read on the color genetics list that the eexistence of a dilute gene is 
unproven, but it does seem to fit.

Linda
On 5/8/2013 8:42 AM, Hettick, Heather wrote:

>

> Lilac Jacobs are definitely not b/b, because lilac ewes bred to a 

> moorit ram who is definitely b/b, I get only black.  There is a new 

> sheep color genetics book out "The Coat of Many Colors, A Survey of 

> Sheep Color Pattern" , by Margaret Howard, that addresses a lot of the 

> patterns and I hope to get it for my birthday, but I doubt even that 

> addresses Jacob lilac and how to code it.  I agree with Neal though 

> that's it's inherited recessively similar to brown b/b in other 

> breeds, but it is not the same as b/b nor do I think it's related to Ed.

>

> I think the dilute explanation makes sense, but don't know how you 

> would code that either or if it occurs in other breeds and what it 

> would look like.

>

> Heather Hettick

>

> *From:*Linda [mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net]

> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 07, 2013 7:51 PM

> *To:* Neal Grose

> *Cc:* Hettick, Heather; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

> *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] Ed and E+

>

> I don't even pretend to understand the genetics behind lilac. I'm trying.

> Some Jacobs are probably EdE+. Even with progeny testing, unless you 

> were crossbreeding, you would seldom see an indication in the lambs. 

> I'm not really going to worry about it much.

> I've read two explanations for the gene that produces lilac Jacobs. 

> Both presume Ed/Ed or Ed/E+. One is that they are b/b (brown/brown) 

> recessive to B (black) at the black loci. There has been some research 

> on determining the cell pigment color on lilac Jacobs in comparison to 

> the Soay brown, which I hope will be shared. The other explanation is 

> that lilac is a simple recessive dilute. Dan Carpenter did some 

> microscopic studies which support this, although some say that the 

> dilute gene is unproven in sheep. All theories agree that the lilac 

> gene is not carried at the extension loci (which is not the same as 

> the black loci), although I haven't yet found anyone that knows just 

> where the lilac gene is carried.

> It's a pretty interesting subject.

>

> Linda

>

> On 5/6/2013 1:29 PM, Neal Grose wrote:

>

>     Our experience here is that you must cross a lilac carrier to a

>     lilac carrier to produce lilac. In other words, there must be two

>     copies of the lilac gene to suppress the dominant black.

>     Therefore, it is not carried at the black loci (Ed ).

>

>     Neal Grose

>

>     -----Original Message----- From: Hettick, Heather

>     Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 10:25 AM

>     To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

>     Subject: [Jacob-list] Ed and E+

>

>     I think most Jacobs are considered EdEd, but some are EdE+. I had

>     a lilac ewe who produced a spotted black badgerfaced lamb with an

>     Icelandic ram who was black badgerfaced and carried spotting, so

>     she had to be EdE+.   She also tended to fade a lot, which may or

>     may not make a difference. The two lilac ewes I still have only

>     produced black lambs bred to a solid moorit Icelandic ram two

>     years in a row.  This year they both have black or black/white

>     spotted lambs bred to a white ram who carries spotting.  I feel

>     fairly confident that they are both EdEd.

>

>     I have a Jacob/ mostlyTunis cross ewe who produces the coolest

>     colored lambs.  She is EdE+ and looks like a Jacob cross - black

>     with a small  white spot on her poll.  Bred to Jacob rams, she

>     produced classic looking black with some white lambs.   Last year,

>     with a moorit solid Icelandic ram, she had two blue ewe lambs.  I

>     think their pattern is considered light blue - they have tear

>     spots and their bodies grayed from the sides outwards leaving a

>     dark line down their backs, and they have black legs and faces.  

>     This pattern has to  come from their mother, either hidden under

>     Jacob Ed or from the Tunis side which includes a colored Romney

>     ancestor as her "Tunis" mother was 1/8 Romney.

>

>     This year we bred her to a black mouflon (reverse badgerface) ram

>     who carries moorit and spotting and got two spotted lambs with

>     both the mouflon pattern and probably her blue pattern, and a

>     weird brown ram who is graying from the skin.   I don't think she

>     carries moorit, although her Jacob father was a lilac carrier -

>     which isn't moorit anyway. I'm not sure if he's actually moorit or

>     just phao colored from the Tunis side.  He doesn't have the

>     teardrop spots, but has some kind of gray pattern - more like

>     Icelandic gray, but his father doesn't carry gray.   I think she

>     carries the light blue pattern and a gray pattern, which we

>     couldn't see because of the Ed and one of her patterns would have

>     to come from her Jacob sire.

>

>     One of her half Icelandic daughters had a classic colored Jacob

>     cross ewe lamb - black with white cap.  This one makes sense since

>     our white ram is black under his white and carries spotting and I

>     think has the solid, pattern based on other lambs he produced. 

>     The other daughter had another sort of strange brown ram.  He

>     actually looks more like he could be  a white with phao lamb

>     though as the color is patchier and lighter than our other brown

>     cross ram.  Both daughters were bred to our white Icelandic ram

>     who I don't think carries moorit so I think this brown lamb

>     probably is white with phao.

>

>     I don't understand phao coloring too much, but I think that's what

>     the Tunis's have that makes them red.  Is it possible this could

>     be what lilac is?

>

>     When I see phao in Icelandics, it's more tan or golden, although

>     I've heard it can be a stronger color too.  Some Tunis really have

>     dark red, and my one lamb who may  have phao coloring has really

>     rich brown on his face and legs. I wish I had room to keep him and

>     could breed him to my lilac Jacob ewes to see what we'd get.

>

>

>     Heather Hettick

>     Moonstruck Farm

>     Creston, OH

>     www.moonstruckfarm.wordpress.com

>     <http://www.moonstruckfarm.wordpress.com>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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