[Retros] How many times could a Diagram be repeated during aproofgame?

[Rol, Guus]

Hi Roberto,

Correction on my previous calculation. Mixed up 'single' and 'full'
moves. Since a "move change" requires 2.5 full moves, the minimum total
number of retractions over 21 diagram repetitions becomes: 5x(8+5+4)+2=
87 single moves!

Cheers, Guus.



> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

> Van: retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] 

> Namens raosorio at fibertel.com.ar

> Verzonden: maandag 4 juni 2007 0:53

> Aan: retros at janko.at

> Onderwerp: [Retros] How many times could a Diagram be 

> repeated during aproofgame?

> 

> 

> Hi,

> 

> Thanks to Alexander and Tom for their comments.

> They are wright having in mind I made a not proper 

> presentation. Sorry, I assumed that being this a retro forum 

> it would be understood by default that I was referring "under 

> retro conventions"  but it was a mistake to state "legal" 

> game. This suggests "real game", where the draw rules have to 

> be claimed.

> 

> Let's start again and present the issue as a retro problem.  

> There are many examples of retros (in the FIDE albums for  

> instance) showing that we agree on the automatic aplication 

> of the draw rules in this type of problems. 

> 

> PRESENTATION

> Let's define "Diagram" just as a board showing pieces on it, 

> i.e., no matter at all anything regarding the right's status, 

> not even who's to move. I present the following Diagram,

> 

> r3k2r/8/2b5/Pp6/5BpP/8/8/R3K2R (just an example with the 

> mimimal material)

> 

> Questions:

> 

> a) How many times could the Diagram have been repeated during 

> the proofgame?

> 

> b) How many retractions are needed to show these repetitions?  

> 

> (all the above following the retro conventions)

> 

> I will post my own answers in few days but it would be 

> interesting to have further interaction first (of course I 

> could still be missing something).

> 

> Best,

> Roberto Osorio

> 

> --------------------------------------------------------------

> --------------------------------------------------------------

> -----------------

> If "legal" means _legal under FIDE tournament rules_, then I 

> believe the answer to your first question, (a), is 

> "Infinitely many times"; that is, there is no upper bound to 

> the number of times a position may be repeated.  I posted my 

> reasons on ChessProblem.net a while back, and you can find 

> them here: <http://chessproblem.net/viewtopic.php?t=127>.

> 

> Regards,

> 

> Alexander George

> 

> --------------------------------------------------------------

> --------------------------------------------------------------

> ------------

> I agree completely with Alexander.  As some relatively recent 

> correspondence 

> discussed, neither the repeated-position draw nor the 

> 50-moves-without-pawn-move-or-capture draw are automatic (see 

> FIDE Rules of Chess 9.2 and 9.3).

> 

> Tom Volet 

> 

> 

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