[Retros] How many times could a Diagram be repeated duringaproofgame?

[Rol, Guus]

Oops! 5x(8+5+4)+4= 89 single moves!

Cheers, Guus.



> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

> Van: retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] 

> Namens Rol, Guus

> Verzonden: dinsdag 5 juni 2007 10:03

> Aan: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List

> Onderwerp: Re: [Retros] How many times could a Diagram be 

> repeated duringaproofgame?

> 

> 

> Hi Roberto,

> 

> Correction on my previous calculation. Mixed up 'single' and 

> 'full' moves. Since a "move change" requires 2.5 full moves, 

> the minimum total number of retractions over 21 diagram 

> repetitions becomes: 5x(8+5+4)+2= 87 single moves!

> 

> Cheers, Guus.

> 

> 

> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

> > Van: retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at]

> > Namens raosorio at fibertel.com.ar

> > Verzonden: maandag 4 juni 2007 0:53

> > Aan: retros at janko.at

> > Onderwerp: [Retros] How many times could a Diagram be 

> > repeated during aproofgame?

> > 

> > 

> > Hi,

> > 

> > Thanks to Alexander and Tom for their comments.

> > They are wright having in mind I made a not proper

> > presentation. Sorry, I assumed that being this a retro forum 

> > it would be understood by default that I was referring "under 

> > retro conventions"  but it was a mistake to state "legal" 

> > game. This suggests "real game", where the draw rules have to 

> > be claimed.

> > 

> > Let's start again and present the issue as a retro problem.

> > There are many examples of retros (in the FIDE albums for  

> > instance) showing that we agree on the automatic aplication 

> > of the draw rules in this type of problems. 

> > 

> > PRESENTATION

> > Let's define "Diagram" just as a board showing pieces on it,

> > i.e., no matter at all anything regarding the right's status, 

> > not even who's to move. I present the following Diagram,

> > 

> > r3k2r/8/2b5/Pp6/5BpP/8/8/R3K2R (just an example with the

> > mimimal material)

> > 

> > Questions:

> > 

> > a) How many times could the Diagram have been repeated during

> > the proofgame?

> > 

> > b) How many retractions are needed to show these repetitions?

> > 

> > (all the above following the retro conventions)

> > 

> > I will post my own answers in few days but it would be

> > interesting to have further interaction first (of course I 

> > could still be missing something).

> > 

> > Best,

> > Roberto Osorio

> > 

> > --------------------------------------------------------------

> > --------------------------------------------------------------

> > -----------------

> > If "legal" means _legal under FIDE tournament rules_, then I

> > believe the answer to your first question, (a), is 

> > "Infinitely many times"; that is, there is no upper bound to 

> > the number of times a position may be repeated.  I posted my 

> > reasons on ChessProblem.net a while back, and you can find 

> > them here: <http://chessproblem.net/viewtopic.php?t=127>.

> > 

> > Regards,

> > 

> > Alexander George

> > 

> > --------------------------------------------------------------

> > --------------------------------------------------------------

> > ------------

> > I agree completely with Alexander.  As some relatively recent

> > correspondence 

> > discussed, neither the repeated-position draw nor the 

> > 50-moves-without-pawn-move-or-capture draw are automatic (see 

> > FIDE Rules of Chess 9.2 and 9.3).

> > 

> > Tom Volet

> > 

> > 

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> > 

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