[Retros] Natch 3.0 beta is out

Paulo Peccin ppeccin at gmail.com
Fri Jul 29 15:34:29 EDT 2016 

The links don't work!

Paulo

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Pascal Wassong <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
wrote:

> Paulo,
>
> I made a quick search in the online retrograde database.  I found a
> mate in 2, where black cannot castle dating back to 1859.  By Sam Loyd
> of course:
> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/search.jsp?expression=PROBID='P0002056'
>
> Another problem, from year 1915, more in the spirit of your problem, by
> another great composer of the retrograde analysis earlier times, Thomas
> R. Dawson:
> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/search.jsp?expression=PROBID='P0001326'
>
> I made the search from the page http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/ and entered
> the following expression :
> STIP='#2' and G='retro' and K='Cant Castler'
>
> To learn how to write expressions, you should use the examples page.
> This database is the most accurate online base for retrograde problems.
>
> Have fun exploring the database.
> Pascal
>
>
> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>
>   Paulo> Ok, I see...  :-) I'm very newbie to all this retro analysis,
>   Paulo> and not very literate to chess in general.
>
>   Paulo> That is a problem a friend of mine and I have invented, without
>   Paulo> even knowing there was an established "retro" type of problems.
>
>   Paulo> I have written a solution with proof in english for the
>   Paulo> problem, but I am just trying to find a means to "prove the
>   Paulo> proof", with some kind of computer help...
>
>   Paulo> Thanks anyway!  Paulo
>
>
>
>
>   Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Pascal Wassong
>   Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>   Paulo> wrote:
>
>   >> Hi again :)
>   >>
>   >> no, Natch cannot help.  This is a classical retro, not a shortest
>   >> proof game.  Natch is absolutely not done to answer your question.
>   >>
>   >> The number of games to reach your position with the shortest number
>   >> of moves are by millions.  Even if Natch would give all these games
>   >> (which would take years), you still would have to check that in all
>   >> games, the bK has moved.
>   >>
>   >> It is easy (at least for me !) to see that in your position, the bK
>   >> must have moved, so the black castling is illegal in this position.
>   >> The proof is not very complicated to write down in plain english.
>   >> You should do it, as this is generally printed with the solution.
>   >>
>   >> There are many problems of this kind already existing.  This is a
>   >> very old trick, maybe 100 years old.
>   >>
>   >> Pascal
>   >>
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>   >>
>   Paulo> That is my initial position:
>   Paulo> 4k2r/pp2p1p1/P7/4Np2/1B4Q1/P2NP1n1/1PbP3q/K2R3R
>   >>
>   Paulo> The idea is to prove that the Black King has moved and cannot
>   Paulo> castle anymore.  Can Natch help in any means?
>   >>
>   Paulo> Thanks,
>   >>
>   >>
>   Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Pascal Wassong
>   Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>   Paulo> wrote:
>   >>
>   >> >> Hi Paulo,
>   >> >>
>   >> >> Natch is absolutely not done to solve this kind of problems.  It
>   >> >> will take way too much time, and spit out way too much
>   >> solutions.
>   >> >>
>   >> >> Checking if your initial position is legal is easy for anybody
>   >> used >> to solve retrograde problems.  Finding the shortest proof
>   >> game to >> your position is probably not interesting at all.  About
>   >> 80 or 100 >> years ago, this was sometimes done to show that a
>   >> position is >> legal.  Nowadays, nobody does it anymore.
>   >> >>
>   >> >> If you intend to publish your problem, the section editor where
>   >> you >> will send it will be able to tell you if your position is
>   >> legal or >> not.
>   >> >>
>   >> >> Pascal
>   >> >>
>   >> >>
>   >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>   >> >>
>   Paulo> Its for a problem I invented. Its a "mate in 2" problem that
>   Paulo> requires retro analysis, and I want to check if the starting
>   Paulo> position is really reachable in a normal valid game. So I don't
>   Paulo> really know how many moves it would require to get there. I
>   Paulo> want to find the minimum number of moves possible.
>   >> >>
>   Paulo> Thanks, Paulo
>   >> >>
>   >> >>
>   Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Pascal Wassong
>   Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>   Paulo> wrote:
>   >> >>
>   >> >> >> Hello,
>   >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> thank you for using iNatch and Natch !
>   >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> For iNatch, the version 0.7 has been created for 32 bits >>
>   >> machines, >> this is a bit outdated.  I suggest using the previous
>   >> >> version >> 0.6.2, which is a full java version, independant from
>   >> 32 >> bits or 64 >> bits.  Many users (me included) prefer the
>   >> 0.6.2 >> version.
>   >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> For Natch, you must provide the number of moves.  It is
>   >> strange >> to >> want to try Natch on a position without knowing
>   >> the minimum >> number >> of moves needed to reach it.  You could
>   >> test the position >> while >> increasing the number of moves at
>   >> each try.
>   >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> Best wishes, Pascal
>   >> >> >>
>   >> >> >>
>   >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>   >> >> >>
>   Paulo> Tried to run iNatch, but it does not start in my machine. Java8
>   Paulo> installed.  The logs say:
>   >> >> >>
>   Paulo> !ENTRY org.eclipse.osgi 4 0 2016-07-29 14:45:04.760 !MESSAGE
>   Paulo> Application error !STACK 1 java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: no
>   Paulo> swt-win32-3320 or swt-win32 in swt.library.path,
>   Paulo> java.libary.path or the jar file
>   >> >> >>
>   Paulo> Also, can I use Natch to find a solution to a position, but I
>   Paulo> don't know how many moves it would take to get to that
>   Paulo> position?
>   >> >> >>
>   Paulo> Thanks, Paulo
>   >> >> >>
>   Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Pascal Wassong
>   Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>   Paulo> wrote:
>   >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> Hello all,
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> 19 years after the first version, 7 years after the latest
>   >> >> >> version, >> a new version of Natch is out.  It is version 3.0
>   >> beta.  >> >> You can >> download it from http://Natch.free.fr .
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> Previous version already computed the order of some moves.
>   >> >> This >> >> was used to eliminate position having cycles in it.
>   >> For >> example >> >> Pa2-a8=N-b6*Pa7 and Pa7xb6.  These move orders
>   >> found >> for a >> position >> are now used when searching for the
>   >> moves.  >> For >> example, if black >> must play Rh8-e8-e3-c3 and
>   >> white >> Pe2-e4, the >> wPe2 won't be allowed >> to move before the
>   >> black >> rook arrived at >> c3.  This improvement >> increase the
>   >> speed of >> resolution of many >> problems, and makes the >>
>   >> --watch (-k for >> short) preaty useless.
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> Many more move orders are also found.
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> A bug has been corrected, where some solutions where not
>   >> >> found.
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> A bug has been corrected on Mac, which made the program
>   >> crash >> >> when >> the hash-tables where full.  I was surprised to
>   >> learn >> about >> this >> problem so late.
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> There are also minor changes in the output file and when
>   >> >> using >> the >> visual option.
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> More details about this new version are available in the
>   >> NEWS >> >> file >> available when you download the beta version.
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> There were many bugs in the numerous alpha version while
>   >> >> >> developing >> this 3.0 version, which have been found by the
>   >> >> >> testers, mainly >> Michel Caillaud and Thierry Le Gleuher.
>   >> Thanks >> >> to them and to the >> other testers.
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> There may still be bugs in this version.  If you find one,
>   >> >> don't >> >> hesitate to send it to me.  The informations needed
>   >> >> are: - the >> >> proof game, being as short as possible, that >>
>   >> reproduces the bug; >> - >> the expected solution; - the number of
>   >> >> the position where the >> bug >> occurs, if needed; - a clear >>
>   >> description of what is going >> wrong.
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> The precompiled version for windows is a 64 bits version.
>   >> I >> >> could >> also prepare a 32 bits windows version, if enough
>   >> >> people >> are >> interested.
>   >> >> >> >>
>   >> >> >> >> Happy composing, Pascal >> >> >>
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