[Retros] Natch 3.0 beta is out
Pascal Wassong
pascal.wassong at free.fr
Fri Jul 29 15:38:35 EDT 2016
The links are correct, I tested them. You should maybe copy/paste the
whole link, instead of just clicking on it. When I try to click on it,
the last part, containing the problem number, is ignored.
If it still doesn't work, go to the home page of the site
http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de and enter the search expression, for example
PROBID='P0002056'
>>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
Paulo> The links don't work! Paulo
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>> Paulo,
>>
>> I made a quick search in the online retrograde database. I found a
>> mate in 2, where black cannot castle dating back to 1859. By Sam
>> Loyd of course:
>> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/search.jsp?expression=PROBID='P0002056'
>>
>> Another problem, from year 1915, more in the spirit of your
>> problem, by another great composer of the retrograde analysis
>> earlier times, Thomas R. Dawson:
>> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/search.jsp?expression=PROBID='P0001326'
>>
>> I made the search from the page http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/ and
>> entered the following expression : STIP='#2' and G='retro' and
>> K='Cant Castler'
>>
>> To learn how to write expressions, you should use the examples
>> page. This database is the most accurate online base for
>> retrograde problems.
>>
>> Have fun exploring the database. Pascal
>>
>>
>> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>>
Paulo> Ok, I see... :-) I'm very newbie to all this retro analysis,
Paulo> and not very literate to chess in general.
>>
Paulo> That is a problem a friend of mine and I have invented, without
Paulo> even knowing there was an established "retro" type of problems.
>>
Paulo> I have written a solution with proof in english for the
Paulo> problem, but I am just trying to find a means to "prove the
Paulo> proof", with some kind of computer help...
>>
Paulo> Thanks anyway! Paulo
>>
>>
>>
>>
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>>
>> >> Hi again :)
>> >>
>> >> no, Natch cannot help. This is a classical retro, not a
>> shortest >> proof game. Natch is absolutely not done to answer
>> your question.
>> >>
>> >> The number of games to reach your position with the shortest
>> number >> of moves are by millions. Even if Natch would give all
>> these games >> (which would take years), you still would have to
>> check that in all >> games, the bK has moved.
>> >>
>> >> It is easy (at least for me !) to see that in your position, the
>> bK >> must have moved, so the black castling is illegal in this
>> position. >> The proof is not very complicated to write down in
>> plain english. >> You should do it, as this is generally printed
>> with the solution.
>> >>
>> >> There are many problems of this kind already existing. This is
>> a >> very old trick, maybe 100 years old.
>> >>
>> >> Pascal
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>> >>
Paulo> That is my initial position:
Paulo> 4k2r/pp2p1p1/P7/4Np2/1B4Q1/P2NP1n1/1PbP3q/K2R3R
>> >>
Paulo> The idea is to prove that the Black King has moved and cannot
Paulo> castle anymore. Can Natch help in any means?
>> >>
Paulo> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >>
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> Hi Paulo,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Natch is absolutely not done to solve this kind of problems.
>> It >> >> will take way too much time, and spit out way too much >>
>> solutions.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Checking if your initial position is legal is easy for
>> anybody >> used >> to solve retrograde problems. Finding the
>> shortest proof >> game to >> your position is probably not
>> interesting at all. About >> 80 or 100 >> years ago, this was
>> sometimes done to show that a >> position is >> legal. Nowadays,
>> nobody does it anymore.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If you intend to publish your problem, the section editor
>> where >> you >> will send it will be able to tell you if your
>> position is >> legal or >> not.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Pascal
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>> >> >>
Paulo> Its for a problem I invented. Its a "mate in 2" problem that
Paulo> requires retro analysis, and I want to check if the starting
Paulo> position is really reachable in a normal valid game. So I don't
Paulo> really know how many moves it would require to get there. I
Paulo> want to find the minimum number of moves possible.
>> >> >>
Paulo> Thanks, Paulo
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hello,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> thank you for using iNatch and Natch !
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> For iNatch, the version 0.7 has been created for 32 bits
>> >> >> machines, >> this is a bit outdated. I suggest using the
>> previous >> >> version >> 0.6.2, which is a full java version,
>> independant from >> 32 >> bits or 64 >> bits. Many users (me
>> included) prefer the >> 0.6.2 >> version.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> For Natch, you must provide the number of moves. It is >>
>> strange >> to >> want to try Natch on a position without knowing >>
>> the minimum >> number >> of moves needed to reach it. You could >>
>> test the position >> while >> increasing the number of moves at >>
>> each try.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Best wishes, Pascal
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>> >> >> >>
Paulo> Tried to run iNatch, but it does not start in my machine. Java8
Paulo> installed. The logs say:
>> >> >> >>
Paulo> !ENTRY org.eclipse.osgi 4 0 2016-07-29 14:45:04.760 !MESSAGE
Paulo> Application error !STACK 1 java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: no
Paulo> swt-win32-3320 or swt-win32 in swt.library.path,
Paulo> java.libary.path or the jar file
>> >> >> >>
Paulo> Also, can I use Natch to find a solution to a position, but I
Paulo> don't know how many moves it would take to get to that
Paulo> position?
>> >> >> >>
Paulo> Thanks, Paulo
>> >> >> >>
Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Pascal Wassong
Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
Paulo> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Hello all,
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> 19 years after the first version, 7 years after the
>> latest >> >> >> version, >> a new version of Natch is out. It is
>> version 3.0 >> beta. >> >> You can >> download it from
>> http://Natch.free.fr .
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Previous version already computed the order of some
>> moves. >> >> This >> >> was used to eliminate position having
>> cycles in it. >> For >> example >> >> Pa2-a8=N-b6*Pa7 and Pa7xb6.
>> These move orders >> found >> for a >> position >> are now used
>> when searching for the >> moves. >> For >> example, if black >>
>> must play Rh8-e8-e3-c3 and >> white >> Pe2-e4, the >> wPe2 won't be
>> allowed >> to move before the >> black >> rook arrived at >> c3.
>> This improvement >> increase the >> speed of >> resolution of many
>> >> problems, and makes the >> >> --watch (-k for >> short) preaty
>> useless.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Many more move orders are also found.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> A bug has been corrected, where some solutions where
>> not >> >> found.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> A bug has been corrected on Mac, which made the program
>> >> crash >> >> when >> the hash-tables where full. I was surprised
>> to >> learn >> about >> this >> problem so late.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> There are also minor changes in the output file and
>> when >> >> using >> the >> visual option.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> More details about this new version are available in
>> the >> NEWS >> >> file >> available when you download the beta
>> version.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> There were many bugs in the numerous alpha version
>> while >> >> >> developing >> this 3.0 version, which have been
>> found by the >> >> >> testers, mainly >> Michel Caillaud and
>> Thierry Le Gleuher. >> Thanks >> >> to them and to the >> other
>> testers.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> There may still be bugs in this version. If you find
>> one, >> >> don't >> >> hesitate to send it to me. The informations
>> needed >> >> are: - the >> >> proof game, being as short as
>> possible, that >> >> reproduces the bug; >> - >> the expected
>> solution; - the number of >> >> the position where the >> bug >>
>> occurs, if needed; - a clear >> >> description of what is going >>
>> wrong.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> The precompiled version for windows is a 64 bits
>> version. >> I >> >> could >> also prepare a 32 bits windows
>> version, if enough >> >> people >> are >> interested.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Happy composing, Pascal >> >> >> >>
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